ST Who's The Baddie?

I think thematically, it screws it up completely. Fans want all kinds of crazy things.

Obviously, this is an area you and I will simply just have to differ on.

 

This is what I've been saying

Darth Vader being Luke's father also screws up Obi-wan's tragic story of how his friend Anakin Skywalker was murdered by his old apprentice Darth Vader...

 

For me, it's about what's most logical and appealing. Plagueius is neither logical nor appealing to me. IMO, none of the benefits of using Plagueius (of which there aren't many) outweigh the issues surrounding his use. The "I'm not dead, but have been in hiding manipulating the plot the entire time" trope is bad writing. It's a crutch for those who don't have the chops to make a new compelling villain. It also follows along the lines of the power creep that plagued (ha!) parts of the EU ("I see your Death Star and raise you a Sun Crusher!") and the movie franchise itself.

Piling power on top of more power can really only work once before you get into diminishing returns. Example: we've already seen Palpatine use Force lightning, then Dooku use Force lightning (which retroactively killed the "Oh crap!" reveal in RotJ for anyone watching the series in order for the first time) with Obi-Wan calmly absorbing it, then Yoda absorbing it with his hand, then Mace redirecting it back to Palpatine, marring his face. Force lightning has quickly become passe. And that's one of the fundamental problems with Plagueius. Vader, for 2.75 movies, was made to be much more powerful than the heroes. Palpatine, for 4-5 movies, was made out to be the outright baddest dude in the galaxy, powerful enough that Vader bends knee to him, but now we're supposed to learn that, nope, there's even a more powerful Sith, that has for some reason decided to just sit idly by while his murderous apprentice takes over the galaxy.

And while "there's always a bigger fish" may hold true, Palpatine's bigger fish was the love a father had for his son combined with his own arrogance.

There are other problems as well. We've already had a villain from that era (Palpatine), the complete lack of foreshadowing, a weird insistence that he's the best way to bridge the PT to the ST, trying to explain who he is to the general audience and having them buy into it, etc.

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I know I won't convince people who think Plagueius is a good idea, but that's some of my reasoning as to why I think it's a bad idea. Since I'm arrogant like a Sith, I bet my avatar that Plagueius won't be even mentioned in the ST at all.

 

That's a fair point. And they made it work. It's not something I would keep trying though.

 

I like it, but the only problem--and maybe this is the problem with everything--is it's been done. The robot/battle suit thing has been done a lot: Terminator, Transformers, Iron Man.

Even an actual plague of some kind, which I've been thinking of (based on this Flash Gordon plot below) has been done a lot recently. What's been done the least?

Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe:

A deadly plague is ravaging the Earth, known as the Purple Death because of the spot left on victims' foreheads. Ming the Merciless is suspected to be behind the plague and it is discovered that his spaceships have been dropping "Death Dust" in the Earth's atmosphere.

SO, a villain, perhaps Plagueis, who really wants to wipe everyone out for some reason. He/she doesn't want to rule the galaxy, but make it dead.

 

Darth Plagueis would be interesting to see as a villain in the new series, but I would be just as interested in a new character. If they were going to bring an older villain back though I think Plagueis would be the most interesting choice.

 

I agree it has been done a lot before, The Matrix and I-Robot are some more examples to go with the examples you came up with. Transformers and Iron Man are a little different I think, but Terminator is definitely really similar.

IG-88 being the villain was kind of a half serious idea I was pondering it my attempts to come up with something other than Plagueis.

I'd be open to Plagueis or somebody else just wanting to destroy the galaxy instead of ruling it.

 

I agree wtih you. I also hope whatever villian we get isnt killed off in the first movie. I dont want a different sith lord every movie. I want one continuous threat that arcs through all three movies.

 

The other day I saw a report that Ian McDiramid (I think that's the right spelling) said that he'd be interested in reprising his roll. Adding on to that bit of news, remember that he was at CVI for the first time signing in the US and that he also got himself a copy of the Darth Plagueis book. So...I'm gonna stick with my original suggestion...Palps will be back in Ep.7-9

 

LOL!

Darth Sidius was always the underlying threat, but he had a different toadie our protagonists fought in each movie - Maul, Tyrannus, and then Grevous. Vader was the main baddie in all 3 OT movies (even though sidious was still pulling the strings), and id like to see something similar in the new movies.

 

I see that some continue to see "the villain" as THE villain. When talking about Star Wars (movies) we are talking about at least 2 villains - the big bad evil villain and the pawn of the big bad evil villain.

The speculations about Plagueis refer only to the big bad evil villain role.
His pawn can be anyone else. Anyone.

Therefore having Plagueis does not instantly remove all other possibilities of having another bad man/woman.

 

I'm hoping to see the Sith Empire rebuilt - not talking political Empire as Sidious did but Sith planets with potentially hundreds or thousands of Sith....this along with the Jedi order being rebuilt.

 

Fair enough. I'm not surei agree with some of your conclusions, but I understand what you are saying. Out of curiosity, what would you want as a villain? So far all I have heard is the overdone jedi turned dark, or the boring political/ military leader that doesn't use the force.

 

I get what you are saying. The thing is though is that Plagueis naysayers have been arguing against it out of cliche, but use the equally used fallen jedi cliche as a counter to it. I personally do not want to see yet another troubled apprentice fall to the dark side. I understand the Sith Lord thing has gotten used a lot too, but Plagueis naysayers were the ones who brought in the cliche card first while backing an equally used cliche. I just would find Plagueis more compelling. In an idea world I would prefer an iconic villain with a completely different background than any that have been suggested here.

 

I know that the chances of Plagueis being in the ST are very, very slim. Probably less than the chances of surviving an asteroid field.
But that doesn't stop me from babbling for 3 hours about why I think he should be in.

I made some posts a while back in this thread where I said talked about the lineage of villains and heroes, which are characteristic to the SW movies (so far).
In those posts I talked a bit about how, in Plagueis' case, it is more plausible to have him actually alive. Well, not necessarily in physical form, but more of a powerful spirit in the Netherworld of the Force, from where he commands his living, breathing apprentice/pawn in the physical world. And how that could connect to the Mortis storyline, the Whills and Mark Hamill's interview from long ago where he said that (in case there would be a ST) the battle would take place "on another plain of existence".
But enough about that. The posts are there, I won't re-quote myself. So I'll get straight to the point.

The question that has always bothered me (well, not always - only since the ST was officially announced) was what are they going to do with the new villain? Will he/she have a point? A real motivation as for why we should take him/her as seriously as we did with Vader and Palpatine?
Because in case we will get (as some fear) a random bald guy with red eyes and pale skin with the sole purpose of doing bad stuff for reasons (straight from the Movie Villain Cliche Book Volume 1) I don't know how much the audience will be emotionally involved in the storyline.

Also, having a Skywalker/Solo go bad because...um...emo, is so obvious I don't think that they are even considering it, let alone insert that into the script.
Having an entire trilogy, not just a spin-off or stand alone movie, means that the new master villain must be someone really really good at being evil. This was another point I made in my previous novel-long posts in this thread about there always being two villains - a master and an apprentice. So if Plagueis is the master, anyone else can be his apprentice - even a fallen Skywalker, as long as he/she doesn't become the master.

That is the problem, because I can't think of many possibilities to make the ST villain interesting. Pulling a villain straight from their "black holes" won't have the same emotional impact. It will be just a villain, just there, just bad. Oh, and look - we're supposed to be afraid of him/her. I don't know, this entire idea doesn't sounds very good to me.

I can see why people want something new. But that is something for the spin-offs (that's why they're called spin-offs, right?).
Calling this Episode 7 means that there will be a continuity for the heroes and villains.
Episode 7 can't be just an epilogue to RotJ. Because we already have an epilogue - ten thousand or so books, comics and novels set in the years after RotJ. We don't need that anymore.
It has to be about something more than "let's see what happens to Luke after he becomes a Jedi Master". That alone is not very interesting and it doesn't justify a new trilogy being made. At all...
Episode 7 just has to have a strong connection to both the PT and OT.

Considering that Anakin and the Skywalkers were the focus of all the 6 movies, having Plagueis would be kind of interesting, as he is the one who caused Anakin's birth in the first place.

Again, I'm not saying that it will be Plagueis. I just think that he makes the most sense as filling the master villain's role.
We may simply get Darth Pale Bald Guy. At this point anything is possible, given the lack of information we have. But speculating is always fun

 

Trying to think up non-cliche villain. I got one idea *you guys will probably hate it*: What about a villain who actually thinks he's doing the right thing. Like he believes that by getting rid of these certain people *like the Jedi* and taking control he is preventing a much bigger crisis from happening. He probably cites his reasons and explains that he's doing it to "balance the force" . We all know he's wrong but he shouldn't come off as crazy *as in psychopathic crazy*. He can gain followers through his wisdom and ability to speak with logic rather than by brutal force or intimidation. Hell he might even try to convince the heroes that they should join him and "balance the universe". Maybe our heroes will even question if they are on the right side of this conflict. He's not doing what he's doing cause he's all "The dark side must rule the galaxy" but cause he genuinely believes he is doing the right thing.
am I just describing Thrawn? Dammit

 

No, you're not describing Thrawn.

 

I didn't find Plaguies himself to be all that interesting...

 

How is Plagueis not from the Movie Villain Cliche Book Volume 1? All I read so far about him seems to point to power hunger as motivation and necromancy isn't exactly a new concept either. Where's the conflict aside from "he must be stopped"?
The OT was awesome because there was so much going on. Possessiveness of a father, hope of a boy, redemption, hatred, etc.etc.etc.

 

What would you like as a villain that wouldn't come off as a rehash of a previous story in the franchise?