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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2010
    This forum's fanfiction section also does not allow criticism of any kind whatsoever. The rules there are tilted to spare anyone any possibility of any hurt feelings at all, the quality of the production be ******. I'd chalk the anti-slash rule up to that impulse, not anything prejudicial.
     
  2. darth fluffy

    darth fluffy Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Beautifully spoken. Are you on board with this petition idea?
     
  3. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Though both are rather silly, they're not related.
     
  4. my kind of scum

    my kind of scum Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2002
    It could lead to capable mating as well. the Star Wars Character Encyclopedia lists Rystall as half theelin/half human, so at least that genetic pairing is possible. Of course, Theelin are a near-human species, so it isn't as diverse as it could be, but...

    Are there any other two species pairings in the GFFA that have produced offspring? Rystall's entry jumped out at me when I read it as I was surprised it was mentioned at all.
     
  5. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Human/Twi'lek.
     
  6. Random Comments

    Random Comments Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Human/Zabrak.
     
  7. my kind of scum

    my kind of scum Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2002
    Ah, yes. I had heard human/twi'lek. Human/Zabrak is new to me, though.
     
  8. Random Comments

    Random Comments Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Its a The Clone Wars creation....
     
  9. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    There's plenty of Human/Near-Human-but-are-really-just-Humans-with-flexible-joints-or-longer-lifespans-or-green-hair-or-pointy-ears-or-some-other-extremely-minor-cosmetic-difference, but I don't count those. Not diverse enough.
     
    Summer Dreamer likes this.
  10. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Sucessful production of hybrid offspring between sentient species within the same genus (Humans and Near-humans) or family (Humans and related humanoids such as Zabraks and Twi'leks) it certainly not impossible, as it is already within the boundaries of current biology. Large mammal hybridization has successful produced a handful of examples so far such as the Cama. Given advanced Star Wars genetic technology hybridization across family lines is potentially possible, and perhaps even interordinal hybridization with extremely advanced Rakatan/Gree/etc. technology, though there would necessarily be a low success rate.

    Keep in mind that 'low success rate' is a rather sterile term for what amounts to a bunch of really, really messy bad pregnancies, malformed fetuses, and hybrid infants stricken with incurable conditions that die in hours/days. The overwhelming majority of such hybrids would be sterile anyway. So it is probable that relatively few interspecies couples would actively attempt to produce hybrid offspring (the Theelin notably did so in a last ditch effort to preserve their species from extinction). Adoption, or cloning are both far more likely practices in such cases.

    I see no reason why those shouldn't count. The overwhelming majority of interspecies hybridization in both nature and the laboratory is between species within a genus. Many of the 'Near-Human' species of Star Wars actually display broader differences in appearance and physiology than do plenty of the species we hybridize already.

    Minor cosmetic difference + Reproductive isolation = New Species. That's how taxonomy determines it. Though these days it might be 'minor genetic difference' instead, systematists are currently discovering all sorts of species that cannot be differentiated by any morphological trait at all. Living on different planets is a pretty clear form of reproductive isolation, I don't see why Star Wars should be held to a higher grade of taxonomic differentiation that actual Earth-based species.

    So Homo turns out to be a super-diverse genus with over 150 species and counting. Big deal. The ant genus Pheidole has over 1,000.
     
  11. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Oh, I'm not looking for successful pairings. By all means, adopt. I'm just looking for more diverse couples. And I pointed out those too-Human-to-be-anything-else-Near-Humans as a cop-out from authors who don't want to think of anything new.
     
    theraphos likes this.
  12. Random Comments

    Random Comments Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Gavin and Asyr were going to adopt, if I recall....then she had to stay dead.
    *shakes fist at Fey'lya*
     
  13. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    X-Wing was pretty good about diverse pairings. Selonians, anyone? [face_whistling]
     
    my kind of scum, RC-1991 and TrakNar like this.
  14. s65horsey

    s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2006
    *scowls*

    But to be fair the X-wing series did have a number of pairings (and in the comics too Hobbie and Janson frequently hooked up with random species of women).
     
  15. RC-1991

    RC-1991 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Not to mention that only allowing couplings that can or want to produce kids is itself is a bit regressive, especially for a galaxy as socially advanced (presumably) as the GFFA.
     
    theraphos and Contessa like this.
  16. themetresgained

    themetresgained Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2013
    Right there with you. When I was a kid (read: 11/12) reading fanfic on TFN's archives I was grateful for the ratings rules re: violence and sexual content, but I think even at that young age (and a decade ago) I noticed it was a bit strange that none of these stories ever contained any same-sex attraction whatsoever. I thought homosexuality was completely normal and natural thanks to exposure to things like Sailor Moon and Buffy.

    But now I really don't see why that's still (or ever was) a requirement. I accept that sometimes slash fics can get very very silly, but so can het fics. Good fanfic is good fanfic, regardless of what pairing it involves. So long as it's relatively in character I see no problem.

    (also, question: how come the TFN archive is no longer updated, though fanfics are still being written on these boards?)
     
  17. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I would call TFN the Disney of SW fan sites, but Disney is actually more gay-friendly.

    (related note: so forgive me if this "far left" thread is intimidating to people--I see it as evening things out a little)
     
    Contessa and my kind of scum like this.
  18. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Nope. It's only a different species if they can't reproduce with one another.

    If two individuals, despite major cosmetic differences, can still reproduce (and the offspring is also capable of reproduction) then it's the same species.

    So Zabraks are actually Humans.
     
    TrakNar likes this.
  19. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Yep! Want to join in? :D
     
  20. themetresgained

    themetresgained Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2013
    I was more asking why the archives aren't updated these days - the last additions to the Archive were in 2011 or something.

    I've never been a fanfic writer, just the occasional beta for my best friend's work./
     
  21. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    I'd hazard that laziness has something to do with the lack of updates. It can become an epidemic at times. ;)
     
  22. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    That would depend on one's definition of normal.
     
  23. Rilwen_Shadowflame

    Rilwen_Shadowflame Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Things that are fine and dandy to depict in the movies that inspired a 'family-friendly' board:

    Physical mutilation.
    Torture.
    Mass murder.
    Drug-taking/selling.
    Dead children.
    Sexual relationships leading to pregnancy.
    Spousal abuse.
    Death in childbirth.
    Death of parental figures.
    Open war.
    Slavery.
    Slavery with sexualised components.
    Unwittingly twincestuous kissing.
    Violence against small fuzzy critters.
    Potential consumption of human beings by said cute fuzzy critters.
    Politicians.

    Things that are not okay to depict:
    Two men or two women kissing.

    Go figure.
     
  24. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2010
    No. Not that simple. First of all reproductive isolation is the technical term for a barrier to reproduction, which is a bit more complicated than pushing the biological species concept in a brutish fashion. Many animals that can successfully hybridize if you go through the artificial insemination process or simply put them together in a lab, but don't ever meet in natural environments or mate at different times or simply fail to trigger the mating impulse in each other are still considered different species. Mayr does not have the market cornered on the species concept.

    Species concepts are somewhat nebulous and admittedly arbitrary, but the ability to produce occasionally fertile hybrids does not make two populations the same species (if you think it does, you've jsut shrunk the number of great cats in the world by a bunch, among other things). When we're talking about sentient species in Star Wars, things are even more arbitrary, since the vary idea of a species concept isn't properly prepared to deal with technology being utilized to bridge it, something the universe has a rather significant legacy of already (see Mother Machine, the.

    Instead we have to take the authors, despite their general ignorance of taxonomic principles (and biology in general...grrr...Killiks...grrr) at their word. If something is described as a seperate species then it is. If you want to call that a bad depiction, fine. If you wish to state that a pairing between certain closely related species 'doesn't count' on the diversity front, fine, but a species is still a species. Again, most of the seemingly minor cosmetic differences we observe even among the Near-humans are generally enough that you could easily interpret them as species level morphological differences.

    By the way, we already do this with Humans. There is considerable genetic evidence now for successful matings between pre-modern Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalis that we know produced viable offspring because the genetic material remains buried in our genomes today, but that population of hybrids was apparently reabsorbed by the larger human population over time.

    To address the specific case: Zabraks are not Humans. Dathomirians are a seperate species distinct from either parent lineage produced via hybrization. That is the best way to interpret the traits we see in them that don't match either lineage - most obviously the considerable sexual dimorphism. While this isn't exactly common in animals (happens all the time in plants), there's no reason it couldn't happen, especially when you throw the Force into the mix.
     
  25. Reveen

    Reveen Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2012
    You forgot bodily mutilation and burning people alive, those are my favorites.

    I think what people mean when they say "family friendly" is "political lobbyist friendly". You don't see people raising a stink on the news about human trafficking and maternal death rates in Afica after all!

    I think the only things that Star Wars hasn't dabbled in are explicit sex and english swearing, or pedophil- oh wait!