Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.20 - The Wrong Jedi (Season Finale) - discussion thread

The Jedi order seems to suffer from internal bureaucracy like any big organization. Lets face it. George Carlin is right about large groups of people (=b). Its interesting to see how the Jedi are being pulled apart by the war with the increasing distrust and even fear the general public has toward them. The Jedi seem like they used to be this third party organization and now that they've volunteers to fight the wars they are being dragged more toward cooperating with the Senate which lead to the rogue Jedi getting toss to the wolves. Maybe the Jedi never really had to think much about their PR and now that they do, they just aren't very good at it. I mean. The whole arc was PR fail and now it really looks like they are falling apart from the outside looking in.

I think individually I can still see the Jedi as heroes. They've all done heroic things. Sure Obi-wan recently made a mistake with Mandalore (Cuz its all his fault right? No, but...) Its their organization and whom they are serving who is the problem. Barriss, makes a great point. The Jedi have always seems very rigid in their own ideology to say the least. However it seems like the council can bend it when they need to, "Hey we're sorry. You a knight now." LOL. Someone should dub the BP apology from South Park with the Jedi Council.

I wonder what the average Joe in the Republic thought about Barriss's speech. Letta said similar the Jedi were like dogs of the Senate in the war.

 

That Filnoi interview had the whiff of him and Lucas as well to a certain extent, of covering themselves and re-writing characters to fit what they want rather than the story told.

The whole Ahsoka is not angry with the council crap, so she doesn't trust herself. What a load of B@ll@@S. Of course she should be angry with the Council for what happened and the crappy it was your actually your trial excuse afterwards. What possible reason in the course of what was shown on screen make her not decide to trust herself, since SHE WAS IN THE RIGHT AND PROVED SO. Why did it need to be changed ?

Then there is Yoda, maybe because Lucas has a soft spot or because he is popular I don't know but why would he think Ahsoka is innocent, especially after practically daring Anakin to say he still thinks she is innocent in the last episode. Why can't he have been one of the council who was wrong, does he have to Gary Stu everything and be right about everything even when its not needed for the plot, it seems un-necessary, and surely as the head of the Council and wisest Jedi etc his Vote would carry some weight and make the others take notice of that. Why did Yoda have to vote for Ahsoka's innocence why not just stick with what was on screen with Obi-wan and possibly Plo, thats it all they needed.

Then there was the whole thing about the Droid arc which seemed to almost like him saying, yeah the fans should have loved it and were wrong not too.

 

I was wondering about this too. I'm assuming Ahsoka will venture back to her home planet and try and fit in, but I'm surprised the rest of the Council just let her go on her merry way. She's still just a kid with no family so I think that's rather cruel.

 

Anisoka?

 

As to "younglings leaving" maybe Ahsoka is considered adult by GFFA standards?

As for Filoni's words re: Ahsoka not mad at the Council, although not understanding the hard position the Council was in...

Maybe the episode should have done a better job then of showing the Council's difficulty and at least the potential that they *might* have made the right decision, instead of making it look like they tossed Ahsoka to the military for PR purposes.

Filoni is right and horribly wrong when he says he knows the audience sympathesizes with Ahsoka and are a "bit upset" at the Council and "some" are royally pissed at the Council. Uh, Filoni, I get the feeling a huge majority of the fans are pissed at the Council, not a few - maybe you didn't get across what you wanted then, because if you didn't mean to screw the Council over in the fans perceptions, well you did.

And if so, why does the featurette say Barriss was 100% correct about all her accusations against the Order? They're not just misguided, but evil?

Talk is cheap, Filoni. Actions speak louder than words and your episode missed in many ways all because you wanted the focus on Ahsoka's trials and tribulations no matter what character assassination went on against other characters.

 

They didn't want to make the Jedi Council look bad by having Ahsoka say, "Why should I trust them?" She gives the more "It's not you, it's me" type of line when relationships collapse.

It seems cruel, but we cannot be sure how things work in the Star Wars universe. They have a 14-yr. old as a Queen of a planet. Ahsoka off on her own at her age may not be uncommon.

 

It backtracking plain and simple. He and Lucas realise that the Council come across as awful and don't like it so try and change it. The same thing was done with Anakin at the start of RotS with the realisation that he was meant to be good and Noble before he goes evil so they tried (and failed) to backtrack the entire last film.

 

The problem is though the whole why should I trust myself line makes no @#@#ing sense because over the course of the episodes including the WHOLE POINT of The Jedi Who Knew To much was that she did trust herself to find the answers, and she was proved right in doing so.
Changing dialogue because Filoni and Lucas do not like how the Council come across is just awful writing. The same thing happened in the PT where we were constantly told something but never shown on screen. In this case it's the exact opposite of what has been going on screen!

 

Ashley clarified on Rebel Force Radio that they didn't want Ahsoka to come across as angry and bitter. Ahsoka was grateful for what Anakin had done for her, but she was just really really disappointed in the council and the system and had to sort things out for herself. She was trying to let him down easy, and she was also just sad and tired.

 

I wonder what the Younglings would think when the hear about Ahsoka leaving? What if a small lady like Katooni kinda understood Barriss's point? Could provoke one of them into running away or something?

 

So perhaps after Order 66, Katooni will decide to join a faction which makes no bones about its amorality: the Weequay pirates.

Katooni does call to mind an earlier Padawan Barriss, actually.

 

I get the feeling that Katooni may be too young and naive to fully understand Barriss's point. Maybe when she is older, becomes a Padawan, or has seen firsthand what the war is doing to the Jedi. Don't forget as a youngling, she hasn't had the chance to fight in the frontlines just yet.

QuangoFett Funny, I recently was reading a fanfic about Katooni joining Hondo after escaping Order 66. She ends up joining his merry band of pirates at Florrum.

 

That doesn't mean she won't be able to grasp a concept of what's going on just because she is young and but inexperienced. Kids are easy to underestimate and very impressionable. They'll get scared easier, come up with their own ideas.

Yeah she is a little like Brain Invader's Barriss. if she could think about joining the pirates Katooni is plenty capable of running away and getting involved with a faction of Jedi trying to fix the order through violence.

Its just a though and I selected the most developed Padawan as the example.

 

Fighting the Jedi Order at her age? I doubt this turn of events would have any influence on Katooni beyond her actions post-Order 66, in the event that she survives of course. Some Dark Times era releases delve into what the scant surviving Jedi decide to do with their lives after the Purge begins, and some (like Maris Brood from TFU, actually probably around Katooni's age circa TCW) delve into the darkness.

Another effect of Anakin and Barriss fighting in front of the Initiates could be Petro - already an arrogant git - deciding to imitate some of Anakin's behaviour, including his brutal Makashi downward blows and the infamous Force Choke. He seems like the sort of kid who would charge at Anakin without a plan come Operation: Knightfall.

Circular_Logic - Yeah, that was a possible future for Katooni that was heavily hinted at in A Necessary Bond. It was only a matter of time before an enterprising fanfic writer ran with that.

 

Not fighting the Jedi order. Just running away in the mean time. The Younglings teacher was first accused of conspiracy against the jedi, bombing the temple, and murder then has left. That can knock some brain cells lose in a youngster when a trusted mentor has some bad karma and gets it bad because of it. I'd be more worried of one of them running away or starting to question things themselves than copying Anakin's brutality and dark ways, particularly with Petrol who I don't think is that observant to begin with. He was always more concerned with how cool he looks. He was probably thinking to himself, "One day, I'll be a way cooler Jedi than that guy." ...actually that's pretty sad.

 

Oooh - link?

 

This, although I am not mad at the council. Never was.

I do know what Filoni was trying to do in the episode, however.

 

Ahsoka does count as an important authority figure. She probably has a closer bond with them than most other Jedi of Padawan rank and above, given their shared experience of the pirate and CIS attacks. They must look up to her a lot. Plenty of children IRL can separate their treasured memories of their trusted authority figure from the cognitive understanding of this person's misdeeds... but I'm no child psychologist. That knowledge of what Ahsoka is accused of, of her politicised tribunal and of her ultimate decision to leave has to have some effect on them.

If any of them idolise Anakin and Barriss or just look up to fully-fledged Jedi Knights in general, they would similarly be deeply shocked to see them in a fight to the death, each tapping into the Dark Side in order to subdue the other. They might be aware of Dooku's existence, but they haven't truly faced the Dark Side, just Grievous and a band of pirates. The duel in the training grounds is their first brush with the Dark Side. Being Jedi with the ability to reach out with their senses, they would be able to pick up on it as it emanates from the two combatants. As you said, Petro is intent on proving himself to be worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Anakin. In order to become a "way cooler" Jedi than Anakin, he would take on his darker attributes because he lacks the observance to realise where this could go wrong.

This experience might have some effect on the Initiates further down the line, whether before or after Order 66.

 

Are we certain about that? In this case, it might have been a democratic decision, with the Council deciding that majority would rule. That was the impression that I got from Dave's comments, anyway.

Did he really need to explain it, though? Yoda, maybe, but I didn't for a second think that Obi-Wan and Plo agreed with the decision to expel her. Would them storming out in protest or something have sent a clear message? Yeah, I guess, but I actually think objecting but quietly going along with the Council's decisions is more fitting for this era's Jedi and one of their major flaws.

 

This has been an emotional season, on both sides. Obi-Wan loses his girlfriend, Maul loses his brother, and Ahsoka leaves the Jedi. Other than the arc with D-Squad this season has been pretty good. Now having said that I hope next season is the last season for "The Clone Wars". I just feel it's time. In fact I felt this season should have been the last season.

 

I didn't think it was that good of an episode, all though we did get to see Padme!

 

Adversity leads to strong bonds. I thought that was part of the symbolism of the ending shot of the Young Jedi arc after everything the younglings went through together. I'm no child psychologist either and I know children, particularly younger ones can be very forgiving of their parents and mentors flaws and misdeeds. Yes they can separated good memories from misdeeds. They can be surprisingly good as sensing a lie sometimes. Kids are never as dumb as adults make them out to be. They can also become mentally effected by watching someone close to them go through something serious. I imagine it'll leave a lasting impression of the younglings seeing what is kinda like the mother of all family arguments.

Do any of them realize they are looking at the dark side? Is Tera Senube going to explain what happened to them? You may be right since it seems the duel between Anakin and Barriss will be another thing that gets swept under the rug since no one of any real importance was there and Anakin about gets away with it all time, once again see Brain invaders. However I don't think Petro will just learn how to force choke, or crack ribs as you think happened, or whatever just from observing the fight. I can see where Petrol will get more aggressive when he turns back the the younglings. But surely that much would get corrected. Petro is really more about is own style than others as seen in his arc earlier in season 5. I don't think he'll start dressing like Anakin and grow his hair out to wear it in Anakin's style. He'll try to figure out how to be cooler in his own way.

I don't know how this experience will effect him, I have this ad vision of Petro seeing Vader and realizing his killer is the same person as he saw fighting in that courtyard.

 

You all do realize that George Lucas in the one calling the shots. I don't think you people understand what kind of show this would have been without Filoni at the lead. This would be a completely different show if Dave Filoni wasn't around. But George Lucas still has all the authority... when George asked for a four-part episode arc focusing on NOTHING... Void... Filoni must do that... period. When George asked for Maul to be brought back from the dead... Filoni had to do that... when George changed Ahsoka's line about not trusting herself, Filoni could not stop that. Filoni can only do the best he can do, but ultimately it's up to George what happens. Filoni accepted that long ago, and if he didn't he would have been kicked to the curb. The reason Filoni still has this job was because when George says jump, he asks how high... and I can't be upset at him for that. It's his job.

 

That gives me the this vision of GL threatening to cut DF is he doesn't make Void. Sorry. <<;

 

Taking the "Jedi Order is family" idea to its conclusion...

Indeed, kids are often quite astute. I doubt they'll run away and I certainly don't think they'll take up arms against the Jedi Order, but if TCW does return to the younglings at some point in the future (perhaps during/past ROTS?) then this experience could have an impact on the choices they make. I have a feeling that their paths will cross with Ahsoka's somehow, and they might already feel some degree of sympathy or support for her already.

Weren't you the one saying that he was a callous, self-centred **** for leaving Katooni to an icy grave, and that his behaviour later with the hidden crystal was a sign that he hadn't changed his selfish ways?

Of course, he'll never get a chance to chart his own course as a Padawan and Knight due to Order 66. At best, he'll survive in obscurity, on the run from the Empire. Petro fighting Vader would be interesting, even though it would necessitate the demise of the former.