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Discussion Keep the Midi-chlorians out of the sequels please!!

Discussion in 'Archive: Disney Era Films' started by Sith_Knight087, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Genetics are firmly entrenched in the OT.

    A family can't have a spiritual connection to anything because a spiritual connection is individual.
     
  2. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Shared destiny. Genetics aren't mentioned once.
     
  3. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Just out of curiosity, why can't you see that Yoda was talking to Luke about how to use the force and notwhy he can use the force?
     
  4. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Does not make the family spiritual.
     
  5. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Because I do not share your interpretation of that scene.
     
  6. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    The force chooses, just as the force guided the droids to Luke in the first place. Does not require genetics or cheesy blood infections.

    It is that invisible power that makes the force more powerful than a technological terror, it makes it's will known and felt. Not through genes, or blood infections.
     
  7. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    so you interpret that scene that Yoda istelling Luke whyhe can use the force?
     
  8. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    The Force didn't choose Luke. Luke chose the Force.
     
  9. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Did it happen that way ? Is it a coincidence that events just happened to bring those important droids to his doorstep, when all he wanted to do was finish his chores and go get power converters with his friends? Such vast galaxy and yet those droids come to him. They could have been anywhere in the galaxy. It would seem events chose him, it would seem destiny chose him.

    Or if we go by the other side, blood infection chose him.
     
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  10. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Luke chose to learn about the Force.

    The scene in question is all about Luke's belief and what is in his mind regarding what is possible. The scene is not about why he can use the force but HOW he can use the Force. There is no interpretation.

    [face_peace] and I bid you good day
     
  11. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013

    My interpretation is that Yoda is speaking to the very heart of existence itself, and the nature of the universe. No interpretation? Nonsense, since we have such different views in the first place.
     
  12. grimlockbedi

    grimlockbedi Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 16, 2006
    This is a topic I have gone over in my mind many times... At this point in my understanding of the topic, I am not sure why (I mean that sincerely, not scaracstically) some people don't understand how the introduction of Midi-chlorians in the PT changed the perception of how the Force was tapped into as presented in the OT. The OT presented the Force as something you could tap into if you believed in it, and trained. It did not mention any biological prerequisites. The PT introduced a biological prerequisite: an individual's Midi-chlorian count. If an individual with a high Midi-chlorian count was deemed to have immense potential in terms of Force usage, it stands to reason that a person with a low Midi-chlorian count had no or low potential. OT: if you believe and train, you can become a Jedi. PT: if you believe and train and have a high Midi-chlorian count, you can become a Jedi. So I am not sure why people assert that the PT did not fundamentally change our perception of how the Force was tapped into, unless I am missing something (which is totally possible).
     
  13. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    I think that is pretty accurate
     
  14. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    No it didn't. If that were the case then every rebel would be a Jedi because they all believed in the Force. Having said that, there was only 1 kid in the entire galaxy that could be trained as a Jedi, and he didn't even know what the Force was when the movie started.

    Because midis only tell us why certain characters can manipulate the mystical energy field. They change NOTHING that was said about WHAT the mystical energy field is.
     
    lbr789 and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  15. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Did they? Or was it viewed as just a hokey old religion?
     
  16. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Yes they did. Not only did they count on Ben Kenobi for help via Leia, they even told the pilots before the Death Star Attack "May the Force be with you."
     
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  17. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    I say God Bless you after people sneeze too, it doesn't mean that I think the devil is out to get you when you sneeze.

    And Kenobi is a man who Leia knows as a friend of her fathers who fought in the clone wars. The force need not be her motivation, you assume that
     
  18. grimlockbedi

    grimlockbedi Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 16, 2006
    During the OT years I always just thought that others didn't try to become Jedis because the general populace didn't believe in "hokey religions" anymore and that most people shared Tarkin's view that "the Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe". And that only people like Vader who still believed were "all that's left of their religion". Vader himself mentions a fellow Imperial's "lack of faith". So I just thought that the belief system had died due to the Jedi being hunted down and killed and the Empire strangling all personal freedoms, etc.

    I am not talking about our perception of the Force itself, I am talking about how the "PT changed the perception of how the Force was tapped into". You actually changed my quote there but left the quotes around it as though the words there were mine. EDIT: this sentence was not correct. T-R- did not misquote me. Sorry.
     
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  19. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Now you're just arguing for arguements sake because there is absolutely no evidence that May the Force be with you is used as routinely as God Bless you.

    And Leia knew Ben was a Jedi, not just a friend of Bail's.

    I didn't change anything, those are your words. I only boldened and underlined it highlight what I was responding to. Common practice on message boards.
     
  20. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    I'm not at all. May the force be with you could be an expression of luck in their culture, it does not immediately mean deep belief. In fact, all the evidence in the OT points to the very idea that you are arguing against, that the Jedi's belief system is dead and gone. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing at all.I don't how anyone can come away from watching ANH and think anything other than "the jedi's way of life is long forgotten".

    Leia may well known that Kenobi was a Jedi. Does that mean she believes in Jedi mysticisim? Probably not. It's as a friend to her father and a man who fought in the clone wars that she seeks as help.

    As a last resort at that. It's only because she is captured

    It's all the retconned crap that comes later that changes that. Retconned crap like taking the force and turning it into a blood infection.
     
  21. grimlockbedi

    grimlockbedi Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 16, 2006
    Wait, sorry, I take that back, I misunderstood what part of my post you were quoting.

    What I said earlier in my post was "changed the perception of how the Force was tapped into " and that was what I was referring to later on in the post (the part you quoted, but I left out "was tapped into". That was confusing, and my bad. I changed it so it now more accurately reflects my thoughts.

    EDIT: but do you see what I mean now?
     
  22. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    No it doesn't. In the OT, the rebels were trying to restore the Republic, the same Republic that had Jedi as its guardians. They were trying to restore that way of life. That's why they were after the last Jedi (Kenobi) for help. The Jedi and their ability to manipulate the Force was gone, but the belief in the Force wasn't.

    How hasn't changed either. Belief, will, and training is how the Jedi tap into the force in both the PT and OT. Why they can tap into the Force and others can't was never explained in the OT but was in the PT.
     
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  23. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    A desire for freedom does not automatically mean a belief in Jedi philosophy.
     
  24. grimlockbedi

    grimlockbedi Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 16, 2006
    I guess I just think that going from "belief and training" to "belief, training, and specific biological conditions" is a clear-cut, definitive change. One way, anyone who believes enough can do it. The other way, it seems that for those with low Midi-chlorian counts, no amount of belief is going to help them. Only the genetically blessed can play.
     
  25. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    It is.
     
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
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