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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit A/V The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers.]

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TypoCelchu, Oct 30, 2012.

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  1. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    If we get something new announced bar Legacy, I'll recover some optimism but so many cancellations in such a short time doesn't fill me with confidence.

    *ejects the Kemp Duology into the void*
     
  2. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Blue/Green lightsabers = Good
    Red lightsabers = Bad
     
  3. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Conscious or unconscious Palpy TPM quote? Either way, nice.
     
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  4. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    They're interested in making a profit. Good storytelling would be nice and all, but that's really secondary.

    If you mean that they would drop a profit-making portion of LFL without a second thought, I think they're a little more business savvy then that - I'm sure they know that sales will drop across the board by looking at other franchises, and there's that elephant in the room of the Other Major Franchise Disney Owns that's doing just fine not turning into a movie support engine. Yes, the movies are going to treated as much more important than the EU - but it's not this binary choice that you're making it out to be, that it's either one or the other.
    This is not to say about what they will do, but what they can do - and there are a number of scenarios where the EU can be kept in one form or another.
     
  5. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Pun intended ;)
     
  6. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Also, in the Episode 7 announcement video, Kathleen Kennedy and George Lucas talked about using the vast amount of information created in the books and comics when writing the ST.
     
  7. Boba Frett

    Boba Frett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    Brilliant analysis, and similar to what I've been thinking. Bravo.
     
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  8. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    But the NJO at post-Crucible is rolling pretty deep, isn't it? Masters to Padawans and all that jazz and they moved several locations, is it the most satisfying narrative to have Luke be the last of the Jedi at the end of ROTJ and have a fully functional Jedi council at the start of Ep. 7? That's a whole lot of "passing on what you have learned" that's been missed by the audience.
     
  9. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    I don't really play video games but isn't the Halo EU supposed to follow the same all-inclusive canon policy as Star Wars? Yet despite being designed that way from the beginning and having a much smaller body of canon than Star Wars, the Halo "G-canon" games apparently don't make any effort to stay consistent with their EU. At least that's what I've gleaned from hearing the fandom's complaints about Halo: Reach, although I don't really know anything about that franchise. But if Bungie can't even be bothered to maintain consistency in a much smaller franchise that they've been monitoring and keeping a tight leash on from its inception, I'm not sure the odds are too good of Disney even considered EU continuity as a factor when making their movies. When it comes to big billion-dollar multimedia franchises like these, I think the "G-canon"-producers will always value their own creativity over that of their for-hire franchise tie-in artists.

    If worse comes to worst, though, LFL can always take a page out of the Alien franchise's book and re-release the contradicted EU with all the characters' names changed. :oops:
     
  10. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    This isnt set a few years after Jedi. It's been almost two generations since ROTJ-a lot can happen. Of all the issues one can have with the EU, I don't think "unrealistically rapid expansion of Jedi ranks" has been one of them.

    If Luke trains 20 students over 20 years (a few at a time, like Yoda- and keep in mind, Luke went from untrained Jedi hopeful to full fledged Knight with what effectively amounts to about a year of training, most of it self taught after Yoda's boot camp tutorials) and those 20 train only 2 students over 20 years, you already have 60 Jedi. If a third of them had a kid, you now have 80 counting younglings.

    And it's not like we're going to see all 100 or so Jedi. Even during the prequels, and TCW the Jedj ranks never seemed to be the 9k in size they supposedly were because we only ever see a small cross section.

    Not to mention Luke doesn't need that many Jedi to form a council of Masters.
     
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  11. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    See, I think to rebuild the Jedi at the start of the ST to have it basically be at the same level it was in the PT would be a bit of a cheat. That's a lot of struggle and building that happened off screen. If they're already rolling at the Jedi Temple and have the padawans and younglings with the training remotes and so forth, the audience is missing out on all of what Luke did in between. One Jedi in Ep. 6 to hundreds or thousands of Jedi in Ep. 7 is a huge jump that happened not in the films. I'd want to see Luke start small, that Jedi Academy trilogy is a cool idea in theory, that Luke is running around with a dozen Jedi that he has to track down on his own. That's solid drama there. (if Kevin J. Anderson executed it properly, well, y'know, that's a whole 'nother thread...)
     
  12. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Yeah, but there's no way Episode VII is going to be showing that-again, this isn't JAT era. Luke hasnt been sitting around for 30 years and only recently started training people. The NJO will have been up and running for several decades. 50-100 Jedi is a realistic number.

    Luke's "start" will be far, far offscreen between trilogies no batter how you slice it. You may get an anecdote of exposition but that's it.
     
  13. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I'd be way down with the number being at 100 max, it's just if the ST opens up and the Jedi are basically have the exact same functioning Jedi Order Exactly like the PT, that would bum me out. I'd actually be alright if it was, like, a Dirty Dozen Jedi scenario, that way we can get to know the Jedi Luke rolls with a bit more instead of the faceless Jedi mass that some of the PT flick Jedi seemed to devolve into. Seeing Luke struggle and Jedi training screw-ups and all that would go with the "passing on what you have learned" dying words from Yoda.
     
  14. FatSmel

    FatSmel Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 2012
    umm, yes

    if he hasn't "passed on what he has learned" by now then he never will

    Then it sounds like you want some movies set between Episode 6 and 7.

    Because that will all have happened long before Episode 7.
     
  15. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    G-canon and the filmmakers' prerogative aren't going anywhere. Even if Leland changes it to K-canon for Kathleen, the filmmakers will still have the freedom to do whatever they want, and that includes disregarding the EU. That's a given. I honestly think that it's not subjective to say that the EU is a burden to the Episode VII team, and I honestly feel that you and many other posters here are overinflating the EU's importance. It's near and dear to us, sure, but to the Episode VII team? Let's not kid ourselves.

    No, no, they're definitely not going to jettison the EU and its profit-making ability. A new continuity would simply give birth to a new EU. And while we at these forums might rage about it, the vast majority of people who buy SW books wouldn't care.

    I sincerely hope that it is a binary choice --- either follow the EU completely or jettison it into an alternate timeline. Otherwise we'll end up with ridiculous retcons that will turn the EU into something very difficult to take seriously, or we'll get a cutoff point that invalidates years' worth of publishing anyway. The EU being kept "in one form or another" isn't an appealing solution, at all.

    Two alternate timelines, two expanded universes. Professor Farnsworth creates a box containing the other, where a coin flip made by Leia during the victory celebration on Endor set off a ripple effect. Oooooh, I like that.
     
  16. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    You mean a coin flip by Waru.

    Anyway, should that come to pass, my big question is whether they'd continue to write in the "old" EU, or attempt to write an ending to cap it all off before starting anew. I'd assume the latter, which is the one I'd prefer; Marvel have shown that multiple universes can exist with both being profitable, and of course all Star Trek novels seem to take place in their own universes, but that approach just doesn't feel right to Star Wars.

    Personally, the prospect of the EU actually having an ending, even if it's just in one reality, is interesting to me (even though that ending should have been The Unifying Force). As long as Denning doesn't write it.
     
  17. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    I have a hunch that they're going to scrap Sword of the Jedi and that Crucible will be the ending. [face_nail_biting]
     
  18. Lazy Storm Trooper

    Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 18, 2012
    I think in the whole history of Halo the Fall of Reach mishap was it. They have kept it pretty clean (aka only a little bit of a book was messed up).
     
  19. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Agreed.

    Plus I'm doubtful whether they'd want the plot to focus around "building" a new Jedi Order specifically, as that's getting all too close to X-Men First Class territory and instantly robs the story of having a feel of originality.

    For the sequels, they'll be trying hard to avoid anything that'll feel like a ripoff of any films released in the last ten years or so, so the basic underlying plot is going to be drawn from something older and less predictable. Look at ANH itself, Lucas pulled ideas from the broad sci-fi genre to construct a setting, but he took his actual plot inspiration from Japanese classics.

    I can see something similar occurring here, where it'll have all the genre cliches, but the plot won't just be X-Men in Space.
     
  20. FatSmel

    FatSmel Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 2012
    I would be more than OK with that.

    I've never much liked the EU second gen characters anyway. Except for Jacen (pre-denningverse).
    Jaina, Ben, Jag --> big who cares
    boring characters

    I'm sure the younger gen characters introduced in the films will be more interesting.
     
  21. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    The point is, there is absolutely not reason to nuke the EU either to write a good original story, OR for general audiences to get it. People started Star Wars cold, with references to things that happened before ANH and that went into legend. People started "cold" with TPM, including us long time fans, without knowing the particulars of the founders of the Sith(Darth Bane etc, all that stuff GL said happened around 1,000 years before TPM). We all got it. The newbs got it. You can do the same exact thing with the ST. It's been 40 years, stuff happened. Not of all of it needs to be told for the story to work.

    The only thing is that they are basically going to have to conjure a threat big enough to warrant being a Saga tale. Maxi-big da Force, and all that.

    What we can hope for is that, now, with the freedom to say "look, the EU has been pretty important to Star Wars in the past... it's very important to the part of the fanbase that only had this for 20 years... we should do our best to integrate it into the Saga without absolutely destroying it" that Leland and Pablo will say that. That they will be listened to. Because their hands aren't tied by GL anymore and with a change in management they have more freedom to say that.

    It may not happen, but it could potentially and they could easily write a film that works with the EU as it has set up a clear point in time, with the Big 3 at the right ages, and with ready-made younger heroes to take their place. Much like the Sith Wars and the Clone Wars the precede their respective trilogies... the Vong Wars can serve in that capacity.
     
  22. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    You need to stop thinking about what they can do and instead think about what they likely will do. I mean, Kim Jong Un can open his country to the rest of the world and start performing broadway showtunes on a nightly basis, but realistically, it's not going to happen.
     
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  23. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Would Luke even start an academy before Episode VII? Maybe he trained every Jedi personally and then it would make sense to have 12 Jedi max., sort of like King Arthurs round table of knights. I think that's much better than having 100 Jedi running around. Jedi should be special anyway. The more Jedi you have, the less interesting the single members of the order become like seen in the PT.
     
  24. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Kinda. Halo: Reach is to the book Fall of Reach what TCW is to the original Clone Wars, albeit on a lesser scale.

    That being said, the limited edition version of Reach came with a journal of one of the important characters (written by the author of Fall of Reach) that actually does a good job of reconciling some, if not most, of the differences. And I hear FoR itself got a second printing to bring it more in line with the games.

    What's interesting regarding this comparison is that the Disney to Bungie's Lucas, 343i, seem to have a much more vested interest in keeping the entire universe consistent... perhaps because they don't see Halo as "their baby", with which they can do whatever they want.

    I remember being struck by how much Halo 4 felt like a "Halo EU" game.
     
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  25. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    If they do choose to jettison the EU, I still don't actually think there would be a new EU to replace it.

    This is where a distinction should be acknowledged between keeping the EU and maintaining 100% completionism. TCW did the former, and, by and large, for all the complaints it has attracted over the years, remained largely loyal to 99% of the EU, even if there was one character in Jedi Twilight that got retconned, or a new twist on Mandalorian history, or whatever else. But the EU is a much bigger place than just Evan Piell or whether Ryloth is tidal locked.

    And, for all the hate TCW has attracted, KOTOR was no better in its treatment of TOTJ, or LOTF's treatment of Vergere, or countless other things. 100% completionism has, from the start, never actually been adhered to literally. Marvel can attest to that.

    Putting that into perspective:

    If they did get rid of the EU, it would be because they just want to tell exciting stories, period. They won't want a new EU to replace that for the same reason that they'd be getting rid of the old one. And what good would a new EU serve anyway? You've just thrown out a back catalogue of over 100 novels, so any back ordering by new fans is instantly gone, reducing your sales solely to new releases,which if TCW's accompanying tie-ins are anything to go by, don't sell well, as the days of "Episode [X]: The Video Game/Novel/Comic" are so 1990s, as these days the buying public has become much, much more aware of the almost universally bad standard of direct film tie-in merchandise, whether its Star Wars or a Hard Potter video game.

    So Episode 7: The Video Game isn't likely to make as much money as Super Star Wars did in terms of the market share that it'll attract (yes, in raw figures it'll make more money, because more people play video games today, but it won't achieve anywhere near as high levels of mass market penetration), for the very simple reason of that people buying video games today both have (a) a better understanding of what good taste is and how to tell a good game from a bad game, (b) past experience that video games rapidly put together for films nearly always suck, and (c) parents who themselves have now played video games when they were children, so actually have more of an idea what they're buying their kids than our parents ever did.

    This is quite probably why they've actually decided to cancel TCW early: so people hopefully forget just how bad its accompanying comics and video games were.

    Similarly, you've got a similar picture when it comes to reading material, as the instant your back catalogue is gone, you can throw out making any money from sourcebooks and Essential Guides or any of that sort of thing: for one, Wookieepedia has killed sales there anyway, but secondly, nobody is going to be buying guidebooks that are filled with blank pages saying "Luke Skywalker grew up on Tatooine. He later married Jane Newgirl and they had a kid named Owen. Other things happened but we don't know what yet because until someone goes and makes a spin-off movie in ten years time in 2025 we don't have anything to tell you." Thrilling. So money won't be coming in from reference books.

    Yes, they could use those very reference books to fill the gaps in, as indeed has been the case in the past, but if their goal is to not shackle what future filmmakers can do, then they won't be randomly filling in Owen Skywalker's history in a sourcebook the way that the ROTS Visual Dictionary first told people General Grievous's backstory. That'd be exactly the kind of world building that they'd be trying to get away from to leave future story possibilities more open.

    Case in point, look at the new Fantasy Flight game: Battle of Hoth, Battle of Hoth, oh, and did I mention there's stuff about the Battle of Hoth? It might sell, but it doesn't expand the universe.

    Which returns me to my point the other day about not expecting anything resembling an EU 2.0. There's just not the same money in a second EU as there was back when people thought ROTJ was it and that we'd never see another Star Wars film. So if Disney decide to go with a reboot, it'll be for the immediacy of the constantly changing short lived merchandising opportunities that come with every new film. In 2021, there might be some toys on the shelves featuring teenage Owen Skywalker and Darth Claw who he fought when he was sixteen during Episode 6.5, but they won't stay on the shelves for long, as the minute the next spin-off comes out they'll just move on to the next thing. I've had this very problem when buying presents for my two nephews, as both being under four their favourite things are currently still classics like The Lion King and so forth, but try finding toys for older films and it's a nightmare: companies want you to buy the new toys for the new movies, and don't keep old things in circulation; the storage costs aren't worth it for them, and the big bucks for people like Disney are in maximizing profits from whatever is the focus of their current advertising campaign.

    It's been this way with the video games from the start, for the same reason as the way spin-offs will work: they're in the limelight for a brief period, technologies improve, culture moves on, and today there are many people who have never even heard of Kyle Katarn, let alone played Dark Forces. It's old, outdated, and lacks the same longevity that a written story can have. Even Revan has been forgotten, and I've seen many discussions in the General Chat in TOR with younger players asking people about who this Revan person is and what he did.

    Likewise, since EU 2.0 would almost undoubtedly be multimedia oriented, that means it'll be inherently more transient in nature, and not designed to build an ever growing back catalogue that future fans could later go and look up.
     
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