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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion Lucasfilm "dramatic downsizing"

Discussion in 'Archive: Disney Era Films' started by phatdude1138, Mar 19, 2013.

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  1. obi_kenobi_24

    obi_kenobi_24 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2003
    No Im not....that idiot Jeph Loeb(Who is the animated version equivalent of Michael Bay for destroying great shows) made it clear what their intentions were with the type of stories that were going to be allowed....He despises serialized material and season long arcs that have some depth for people beyond your average 2 year old

    http://screenrant.com/marvel-cancel...t-heroes-adds-avengers-assemble-scott-178766/
     
  2. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2003
    You can be angry at Loeb for sweeping away a show you obviously very much liked, but not for "despising" serialized shows. The fact is, he's right: some shows can become so serialized in format that catching up becomes virtually impossible for some members of the audience. And in television - particularly now - you cannot afford to lose so much as ONE viewer if you can prevent it.

    Here's a personal example: Once Upon a Time. My daughter is VERY into that show, and has been fiercely recommending it to my wife and I for a year or more. And we certainly WANT to see that show, and whenever we do get the chance, it's damned interesting, and at the very least I know I'll get a guaranteed great performance out of Robert Carlyle each and every week. But we're going to have to catch up on an entire season-and-a-half of episodes just to be able to follow along, and the fact is we just CAN'T. Neither of us have the time to invest in watching that much material simply to catch up. People's time IS often taken, and during that first year or more of the show we were struggling just to keep afloat and sane while undergoing what has to be some of the worst financial and emotional stresses of our lives, so we had no time even to set aside to watch the show until about recently, and so, just as Loeb said, when we sit down on Sunday evenings we do indeed suddenly feel like "I don't really know what's going on." And we're not exactly idiots, mind you; we're quite capable of following along with the basic plot of a given episode, but we're at a loss to understand the complicated backstory rergarding the interactions of so many fairy-tale characters all thrown into one big pot. We understand that Regina and her mother Cora have a complicated relationship, for instance, but we haven't seen the episodes that establish why; we understand that Captain Hook has a grudge against Rumplestiltskin, but we don't know why because we missed that too. And yes, we could just look on Wikipedia to get the basic facts and context, but then we're also denying ourselves the intended emotional impact of that knowledge on an audience; one might as well learn that Vader was Luke's father in that same fashion - it takes all the power out of that revelation, and it's no way to catch up on something that we're told is actually a pretty good show.

    I stand with you in my own personal preference for serialized television, if only because there's room for more depth and richness to a story that way: the reimagined Battlestar Galactica was better for it, but then I watched that show from the very beginning with all the loyalty that my daughter gives to Once Upon a Time; I didn't jump in halfway through. And even then, there were also individualized episodes as palate-cleansers. Certain series, such as The X-Files and The Clone Wars, straddled the thin line between the two extremes of serialization and individualization, but with TCW the execution was uneven, so that arcs which needed the time to breathe often didn't have enough episodes to do so, and arcs that would have been better when shorter were given one or more episodes too many.

    Loeb isn't saying what he's saying because he despizes serialized material; he says it because he understands the realities of television watching. He doesn't hate depth or love things only a two-year-old would watch; he's simply acknowledging that people only have so many hours in a day to commit to any show, regardles of quality, and therefore they only have so much time they can spend to catch up on a show if they miss any of it. What am I supposed to do in my case, watch one or two episodes of Once Upon a Time each and every day just to catch up? I have a job and a family, and I'm not into the show THAT much. Children may not have jobs, of course (unless it's in a sweatshop in some Third World armpit), but they do indeed have other demands on their time, such as school, friends, other shows, other activities, extracurricular crap, etc., so the rule applies equally to children AND adults. And though we may never feel so about OUR show of preference (regardless of which show that is), quote often the decision on the part of a potential viewer not to bother catching up at all when there's so much else on a person's plate comes down to one simple dismissive phrase: "Ah, forget it, it's just a TV show. I have a life."

    Loeb understands and acknowledges REALITY: serialized television provides less accessibility; individualized television provides more accessibility. And in this day and age, accessibility is far more important. If I'm not caught by something in the first five minutes, I'm not going to be, and if I'm spending that time just getting acclimated to things that have already happened, it's far more likely that I'll just change the channel. If I can't get the entertainment I want on one show, I won't hesitate to find it elsewhere on another one. A viewer (in other words, the customer) has no obligation to make allowances for a show that rubs him wrong; the show has an obligation not to make something that rubs the viewer wrong in the first place. In a universe with almost unlimited options for entertainment, Loeb is arguing, no show can afford to sacrifice one viewer when that one viewer may mean the difference between staying on the air or not. Blame every source of entertainment other than television for this fact of existence (whether it's Facebook, YouTube, personal tablets, video games, books, comics, iPhone apps, etc. etc. etc.), but don't blame Loeb for acknowledging that fact. It's not contempt for serialized television; it's LIFE.

    You can get a solid entertainment from both serialized AND individualized television formats. Whether there's depth in either one depends on the writers, not the format.
     
  3. Son of a Bith

    Son of a Bith Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2013
  4. kevmp

    kevmp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 4, 2011
  5. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    You see I don't think that is quite true. The Thrawn trilogy (the first EU books) were huge world wide, so much so that the Times newspaper references it evem to this day and that was for all 3 books since (while the 1st book would have sold no matter what) people did come back for the 2 and 3rd. It was only after that, audiences gradually went down and down during the Bantam era, due to many of the above problems even then. So that at the end when Zahn did his Hand of Thrawn duology that closed off that era (1998), a portion of those books had him correcting or retconning certain stories.
     
  6. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    Mara Jade is in the Han Solo Trilogy/Scoundrels and Shadows of the Empire :confused:
     
  7. kevmp

    kevmp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 4, 2011
    I asked my friend if his two boys (aged 4 and 6) is they were upset that the Clone Wars were cancelled, he said no and they wanted to know when the new movie comes out and if there would be a new Star Wars cartoon. How exactly am I cruel and out of the loop? Granted I am not a parent, but I know enough kids personally to get an idea. You're acting more childish than actual children are.
     
  8. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Keep this in mind while going down this current discussion path. Forever could it dominate your posting destiny.
     
  9. kevmp

    kevmp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 4, 2011
    You can also hate on William C. Dietz too..he wrote the Dark Forces novellas, which a lot of Jedi vs Sith is based on...Dark Forces introduced Ruusan, bouncers (ugh), The Valley of the Jedi etc
     
  10. kevmp

    kevmp Jedi Master star 3

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    May 4, 2011
  11. Lee_

    Lee_ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    We already have the natural conclusion- ROTS. That's the point, time to leave that era behind and move on.
     
    Darth Chiznuk and kevmp like this.
  12. kevmp

    kevmp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 4, 2011
    Well as has been stated more than enough times, the remaining season 6 episodes will be shown.

    A solid performer....not so much anymore. How much juice could the squeeze out of the Clone Wars already? The quality of season 5 was questionable...apart from the Darth Maul/Mandalore and the Ahsoka/Fugitive arcs, the rest of the season was forgettable. The D-Squad arc was garbage. The Onderon Arc was a nice sleep inducer.

    If the show ended with Ahsoka leaving the order, which was a pretty powerful moment, that would be a satisfying ending. But if you want character resolution here you go: Rex and Fives get folded into the regular Imperial Army. Ahsoka goes into hiding and hey maybe if you are lucky she will reappear in Episode VII!. Bonus fate resolution for Asaaj Ventress: read "Star Wars: Obsession" by Dark Horse. Done
     
  13. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2003
    You're right, I have to concede on that. The original Thrawn trilogy of books were indeed a big media splash in the period of 1991-1993, particularly in an environment where, apart from some WEG role-playing materials, there really had been no Star Wars presence in the marketplace at all for some time. That, and the fact that the book was claiming to be "the authorized continuation of this beloved story," was bound to make the general audience at least aware of Star Wars again as a property when many of them had undoubtedly moved on with their lives since 1983. But that couldn't possibly translate to that same general audience then deciding to commit to every book that came after; as I said above regarding serialized television, people only have so much time in a life, and if they're not totally into Star Wars like we are to begin with, they're not going to become so on the back of books that gradually became aimed at a smaller and smaller readership composed of devoted fans, not orginary joes who (again, just as in serial TV) would find the whole thing to be too much to keep up with. And of course, you're describing just the Bantam era; never mind the Del Rey era, when things REALLY went off the deep end. I read the NJO from beginning to end and even I had exhausted my patience with it before it was done; I can only imagine how a general audience would react to it.

    P.S. I know I refer to the "general audience" a whole hell of a lot in my posts, but it's absolutely critical to understand how important that huge percentage of the marketplace is to LFL's future. Yes, they don't love Star Wars like we do, but each and every one of us fans began not AS fans, but as members of a general audience ourselves; the films just happened to catch us and magic happened. Every member of a general audience is a potential fan; every member is therefore vital to the future of the franchise. The general audience is not something to be casually dismissed as "the stupid, unwashed masses;" there's way more of them than there are of us, and therefore it's them the new films will have to communicate to. We're comverted already; what Disney/LFL needs is NEW converts, and they were never going to get that under the previous way of doing things. More people see films than read books, if only because it actively engages more of their senses than a book can, which is why it was foolish for a film company to decide to become a book company when that could never guarantee its future the way new films could. I don't see Tri-Star Books anywhere; no book I ever read was printed by Universal or Fox or Lionsgate. Lucasfilm is a FILM PRODUCTION COMPANY first and foremost; they need to get on with making FILMS, not books.
     
  14. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    This is not the EU love/hate thread. While we are glad you enjoy reading, use those skills to read the topic of this thread and every Mod warning you have skipped over.
     
  15. kevmp

    kevmp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 4, 2011
    I miss those old West End Games source books and mission books...
     
  16. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2003
    I've said it before; I'll say it again: if we're discussing the problems within LFL that led to its being bought and then downsized, then the public reaction to being oversaturated by EU material is indeed part of that larger problem. The mods agreed, provided we keep it within certain parameters. And last I checked, Chorus, you weren't a mod - and perhaps you should use your own reading skills to read your own profile to remind you of that fact. Let the mods do their jobs; they don't need your help.
     
  17. STARBOB

    STARBOB Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2002
    [​IMG]
    The shroud of Disney has fallen, ended the clonewars have.
     
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  18. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Gawd... I am so ashamed... carry on...
     
  19. PrincessKenobi

    PrincessKenobi Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Mod Final Warning

    Guys we are going to get back on topic I'm locking the thread.


    You received this Ninja message from Tapatalk
     
  20. bluemilkcheesypuffs77

    bluemilkcheesypuffs77 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2012
    PrincessKenobi are you an angel?
     
  21. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2003
    Look, PrincessKenobi, I'd be glad to stay on topic, but how do YOU choose to define that? I've tried to have an intelligent, honest and comprehensive discussion about ALL the factors within Lucasfilm (whether it was bad business decisions, an incorrect focus, quality issues, or simply the long-in-growing dysfunctional relationship between Lucas himself and his fan base) that caused it to become so weakened that a Disney buyout, and the subsequent downsizing of the company, could even become a potentiality, much less a reality. The way the company handled the EU is indeed one of those factors - and for what has to be the eightieth time, I repeat that it's not even the main factor, and believe me, I covered a lot of factors BESIDE that one - but fine, I'll accept a mod's judgment that you feel it's time to move on to the other factors. Rather than just slapping us on the wrist, would you perhaps care to suggest to us where we should focus instead? Which aspect of the problem catches YOUR interest? The company is downsizing, and people are ticked at the news; this thread can only last as long as the emotional reaction is still fresh. When that's spent, the discussion is only going to degenerate into stupid jokes and nonsense anyway. If we can't discuss all of the aspects of this game-changing period in LFL history intelligently, openly and honestly, then there's nothing to talk about and this thread has no point or purpose at all. If that's the case, then quite frankly, you may as well lock the thread.
     
  22. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Good thing there isn't one. :p

    But as for the topic, someone should start one, but then again it might derail again.
     
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  23. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Im glad Disney is streamlining the devision, simply put TCW ratings where dropping every season. They put themselves in a bad spot with the first two seasons having a show meant for 5-9 year olds but then as seasons went on kept half the episodes for that age but the other half for teenagers to adults. Sorry but that was too little too lte, they had lost over half their viewing audience by season 5. Best to get rid ofvthe people responcible for that and focus on ep 7 and this new tv show they are apperently making. Plus the article is clear, some are being reassigned and some fired, lets just hope they picked the right people for each.

    First off I said limited involvement, so even if she had a small role Id be covered

    Second Mara is in none of those book, I just double checked my ebooks of them all plus her listed appearances in wookieepedia

    Third Mara is in the Corellia Trilogy, I think you're mixing up that one with the Han Solo trilogy
     
  24. kevmp

    kevmp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 4, 2011
    I agree that the oversaturation of EU materials including games, books and comics are an important factor into the reorganizing/downsizing of LFL and should be discussed here, along with the Clone Wars getting axed etc
     
  25. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2003
    I think the current keywords would seem to be "along with" and "etc." :p

    But OK, let's take the initiative ourselves: kevmp, aside from the EU, is there any other factor in the decline of LFL that particularly stands out to you as being worthy of discussion here?
     
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