Amph The Comic Book Character Draft ReduX [Ed: That's #10 for those keeping score]

He has a lot of power that he can use, but lets be honest about how powerful he really is without time to cast and channel the power of others. He didn't beat the In-Betweener without prep and some help from cosmic entities. He didn't beat Shuma Gorath without prep and other items he normally doesn't carry. He didn't beat WWH even with prep and channeling Zom.

 

I'll look at your arguments and have something up after work. But yeah, I think God plus Power Cosmic should be able to beat Extant.

 

Yeah, well God and Power Cosmic should have been able to beat Red Hulk as well, but he beat them both (at the time Silver Surfer was trumped with Terax). Extant > Red Hulk.

 

I'll get to Strange... Sometime... Right now Youtubing Zero Hour real quick because this Extant-love is fishy. And the heroes who confronted him definitely were not prepared and didn't even know who they were fighting. Although, he was and did.
Oh, shocking. He absorbs Waverider while his back is turned helping people. Yeah, real straight-up guy, that Extant. So far he's managed to age old people and hurt Kyle Rayner... No more than many other people have. I wonder how much help and distraction he had beating Monarch.

The killing of Fate, however, appears to be legit.

And Thor came back and beat Rulk, who has as far as I know never been showed to be that unbeatable after his first several issues and even when he beat Thor it was hilariously stupid (lifting Mjolnir on the moon?). I don't even remember Rulk fighting Surfer.

 

I don't think this is quite the same as absorbing Waverider... It's just being a little thief.
Monarch leeched a portion of Waverider's abilities to look into his own past, and realized he had become more than simply Hank Hall. He had absorbed Dove, not simply killed her, and become a fusion of the children of the Lords of Chaos and Order. He became Extant, stole Waverider's time gauntlets, and plunged himself into the timestream

Although he does kill Waverider later apparently, not absorb him, from behind, in that Tubeage I linked to.

Also, whatever Entropy rifts killed people are the result of Parallax, not Extant.
Extant looks at the entropy, and wonders how all of it could have been created without his knowledge. The true hand responsible steps out and reveals himself: Parallax. Parallax tells Extant that he has been responsible for all of the chaos, and blasts Extant into submission.

If you're calling the thing that took out Fate an Entropy Blast, well, he tried to hit Alan Scott with that. The ring protected him, which is why he had to drain the ring of its power.

Not saying he necessarily should lose to Scott, I really don't have the time to be a judge of that, but... He's being made to sound way better than he is, and there's no way he should beat Thor and Surfer. Here is the actual Zero Hour synopsis.

Now, do I have to do this digging for these allegations against Strange using his powers, or can he just use them?

 

Prove em

 

Jerk. I'll try to get to it tonight. I'll give a preview now tho:
"See, like I said before, he's not prepared. And oh look, he can always summon these things and they work, and no one came and offered assistance."

 

According to Extant, the Entropy rifts are his.

http://imageshack.us/a/img211/4381/extant019wn1.jpg

You can call it what you want, I call it one shoting a prepared Dr. Fate. And not just a one shot KO, it is a one shot KILL.

Also, pretty sure an entropy blast wouldn't age someone. Extant was trying to simply make him old, clearly that would be a chronal blast that he was using if that was his goal.

Regardless of what you want to call it, can you show me anyone else who has done that? Ever?

This is a Dr. Fate who was coming for Extant, prepared and fully understanding who he was facing.

You also can't dismiss how powerful he was as the Monarch, which is just a different version of him...a less powerful version of him.

I would say the burden is on you, I clearly debunked him beating the In-Betweener on his own. I clearly showed that he didn't fight and defeat Shuma-Gorath without prep. I showed him getting beat by Green Scar Hulk regardless of the fact that he was prepared and highly amped. I also showed the circumstances behind his defeat of Galactus, who was on the verge of death due to starvation and was already occupied by Thor and Iron Man (in and of itself shows how weak Galactus was if these guys could distract him in a 2 on 1 fight).

Am I saying he isn't powerful without prep? Not at all. Just showing the circumstances behind the most powerful showings of Dr. Strange.

Those are always the main feats we hear in regards to Dr. Strange. Go ahead, debunk them. Show something different, prove to the judges the actual realistic level of an unprepared and non-temporarily amped Dr. Strange. It is a shame you didn't do it in the other match to be honest, I really didn't expect to win that but was happy to take it after putting in the work for it and felt okay about it because it was a very solid trump that I honestly believe had a chance at the win.

 

So I've already linked to Thor before. But here's surfer:

http://www.comicvine.com/silver-surfer/4005-2502/forums/silver-surfer-respect-thread-684061/
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t459252.html
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/silver-surfer-respect-thread-50491/

The things to take away: How does Extant hit surfer? No seriously. Look at his speed feats. His telportation, his 'phasing'. How does Extant really think thats going to go? He's not prepare. He's going in blind against the Power cosmic. And then add the God of Thunder and all the power of Mjolnir. You can see how many blows these guys have taken from some ridiculously strong opponents (Thanos, Galactus, Hulk) and still keep moving. I really have to think that the combined might of these two can take out Extant. Maybe one falls, but not both.

One feat that interested me, but alas the scans were dead, was of surfer evolving a planet to death. Anyone know what that was from?

 

Wait, I'm confused, the the Silver Surfer/Fantastic Four rights revert back to Marvel or are they still owned by FOX?

 

Sorry, maybe some of them are, as it does say, I believe in the synopsis, that time is unraveling from "both ends." But by some point in the story it continues, and that scan is from pretty early in Zero Hour I believe. Regardless, the rifts aren't battle attacks, nor do they appear to be "aimable" at particular people. Just massive event horizon-y things that, unless you know how, it's not shown how they're being done.

Well, you can call it prep, but the guy holding the comic and explaining it pretty much says the opposite. Mordru has probably done it but I can't say for sure. Regardless, it had no effect on Alan. Can you show me anyone else who has had Extant's blasts not affect them? Ever?

The Monarch does seem very impressive, but it's also not him, unless alternate reality and future versions count for feats now (and some of those Monarch things, according to synopses, was alternate/possible future). And no one has showed what the circumstances were in him actually beating Monarch, who was, being a future version, probably more experienced. Plus his feats as Extant don't put him on a planet-busting or whatever level.

Most of that stuff... You just alleged. The Green Scar thing is the only thing I recall you actually showing, and that is a very toned-down Strange. The Galactus thing I'd have to look at again, but he has been "distracted" by many people over the years without being weakened. And it's still, you know, Galactus.

::Sigh:: Guess I'll have to.

Sure hope I did all this quoting correctly.

I did!

Interesting. From the Dr. Fate DCdatabaseproject, this is how Extant beat him. I gave him credit for a straight kill shot but I guess I was wrong there too... Fate, the page points out, was two people and the blast split/aged them. Still time blasts rather than straight power.
Extant defeated the JSA and as he had the power of both a Lord of Order and Chaos, he forced the split of Dr. Fate, flinging the helmet and amulet through the netherverse which would eventually return to Egypt, a nexus of Fate's power

Alright, I'm sure there will be some sort of counter but I'm kind of done. I don't even like thinking about Extant (seriously, I watched him on the draft board for at least a couple rounds and couldn't stand the thought of him on my team). I'll get to Strange hopefully tomorrow.

 

I showed the scans earlier, Waverider took a group of heroes that included Fate and Sentinal to Extant. It was them that followed him, and confronted him. How is that not equal them being prepared for what was coming?

And no kidding that his chronal blast had no effect on Alan, the power of the Starheart makes Alan immortal in terms of aging. Pretty hard to age a guy like that wouldn't you think?

You are right, Monarch isn't Extant. But they are both Hank Hall, and Hank Hall killed Monarch in order to become Extant.

Hawk and Dove were mystical and powerful beings.
http://imageshack.us/a/img152/4463/extant001rc1.jpg

He killed Monarch for killing Dove, off panel, but it is enough to know that Hank killed the most powerful ruler of a future timeline. A ruler who the entire hero world had been dominated and finally defeated by. We also know by on panel description that Extant is now more powerful than Monarch ever was.
http://imageshack.us/a/img339/9764/extant002hz7.jpg

Again, this is the comic describing his power level, not me.

He uses his entropy blasts all the time. He used it against Dr. Fate, killed him instantly. He used it against Time Trapper, killed him instantly. He used it against a bunch of (supposedly) powerful mystics, killed them all instantly.

http://imageshack.us/a/img66/1663/extant026kx8.jpg

In this next one a different Dr. Fate explains who Extant is, even he considers Extant and Monarch the same being....just having assumed different identities. Also says after the death of Dove he became a being consumed by Chaos energy, that mixed with Chronal energy once he killed and absorbed Waverider.

Go ahead, look.

Vs. Galactus, Reed Richards says clear as day that Galactus was only moments from death.
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-1895915
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-1895918

You can read the stuff against the In-Betweener yourself.
http://marswillsendnomore.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/doctor-strange-vs-the-in-betweener-round-one/
https://marswillsendnomore.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/doctor-strange-vs-the-in-betweener-round-two/

Strange was sent to confront the In-Betweener, he had support from the Lords of Chaos and Order (the creators of the In-Betweener). It would be akin to saying that Batman defeated Silver Surfer, but only with a huge boost from Galactus.

In the end he still needed extra help from the Ancient One (Vishanti).

Against Shuma-Gorath, Gorath's bio states that Strange had to defeat and merge the powers of Arioch to himself.
http://www.comicvine.com/shuma-gorath/4005-14000/
The synopsis in the link above clearly states that Dr. Strange absorbed powers from others through many battles, eventually merging himself with Arioch as well before facing off against Shuma-Gorath.

Here is the summary.

"Strange's confrontations with some of the Old Ones allowed him to amass black magic power that eventually enabled him to surpass his previous level of power to a large degree." blah blah blah... "Fortunately for Strange, he was unaffected by the realm's alien energy as the amount of black magic coursing through his body brought him to a level of power that even surpassed his former master, the Ancient One." blah blah blah..." Strange continued the journey alone to face Shuma-Gorath but found himself in the dimension of the chaos lord Arioch. This long-haired demon armed with a sword and chain armor revealed itself as being as powerful as it wished to be, and not even finite. Strange could not hope to stand up against that power, and so he defeated the chaos lord by merging his body with it and losing much of his identity in the process. After the fusion with the chaos lord he made his way to Shuma-Gorath’s Chaos Dimension."

In his battle against Shuma Gorath, Strange fought and stole energy from him. He was nowhere near a normal level of power in that fight.

Vs. Green Scar Hulk. There is no evidence to support your claim that he was toned down. He was Sorcerer Supreme in that fight, he was merged with Zom (an extremely powerful being, always put on the level of cosmic entities and gods).

Fact is that he was amped up far beyond his standard peak by being infused with the power of Zom, yet he still lost.

What shred of evidence do you have to support the thought that he was "toned down"?

I understand that it sucks that someone took a crap on your #1 pick, but facts are facts. Strange's most impressive feats are not straight up wins that he should get credit for on his own. He is powerful indeed, but some of the crap he pulls off just isn't a situation that would happen in a draft...prepared or not. He won't be merging with immensely powerful demons or chaos lords, being enhanced by the Lords of Chaos and Order and the Vishanti, or fighting near death characters.

 

Well damn Yak, here I was hoping your depowered jobber in Strange would face off against mine! Shucks that would have been a tough derp fight for the judges to act on.

Oh the wonderful problems of these drafts. Now Doctor Strange lost to MM and WW (or whoever it was) last round, which literally means nothing here, especially since it was a pretty meh call, but the Sentry is better than both MM and WW so he should clearly win here. That being said I am sure Doc will take this one. Not that I want Bob to lose here or anything but Strange shouldn't have lost to the two boobs he lost to first round so if Sentry has to lose here so be it.

But if the judges are going off of logic that let Strange lose last match, the lack of prep, the telepathic assault, the bum rush attack the durability, etc Sentry takes this. I mean Strange lost in LIMBO. *facepalm* Yak you're the NEXT to worst GM ever.

 

I'm just confused at why he's not prepping Strange. Prepped Strange=instant win 9 out of 10 times. It's nice to have that one guaranteed win. Are there others on your team that truly need it more?

 

Exactly Sentry wins here.

 

Want a Kleenex?

Well he put it on John Stewart the first round, and prepping a Lantern is basically useless.

 

This guy may have a bad hair cut, may not have a respect thread, but he's still the last Green Lantern. He's had a few centuries to master his power. Recreates the corp. Honestly, the feats of Kyle as Ion should be comparable to what he did since at this point he is the last lantern and has all the power. Also :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daxam#Sodam_Yat
In the limited series Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds, it is revealed that, in the future time period of the Legion of Super-Heroes, Sodam Yat is still alive, acting as the last Guardian of the Universe, and has somehow regained the bulk of his Ion powers. He has taken over Mogo's role in searching for worthy candidates for a new iteration of the Corps. [10]

Some of Mogo's feats are quite impressive with phasing and mass teleportation. In addition

Power Absorbing: In the JLA's first fight with Amazo, it was GL who defeated him by drawing out all of Amazo's powers. In Green Lantern/ Silver Surfer: Unholy Alliances, Kyle defeated Parallax with SS' power and Thanos with Oa's energy by drawing out all that extra energy from them which made them unconscious. However he couldn't hold all that power nor could his Ring like Hal did with Amazo's powers, so that move isn't often used with so much power.

Not saying he can absorb CNX powers since she is a mutant, but definitely absorb some of the psionic attack energy. Once again, in a millennium, and the knowledge of the core, he would have figured some of these things out.

Probing: The ring can probe the Lantern's or another person's mind, allowing him to uncover memories or the person's thoughts.

After coming into the fight shields up, all he has to do is probe or attempt to probe CNX to realize she is a telepath, and then fight with that in mind. Honestly, I think we've underrated Ion from the get go. Despite all my ludacris arguments of trying to make Ion Kyle, Sodam Yat has a similar powerup as the only lantern too, and that can't be ignored.

 

Not going to argue my match. Just disappointed we didn't get Thanks v Darkseid.

 

I was hoping for Thanos vs Darkseid myself

 

How would you even judge that?

 

Coin flip.

 

That's what I was thinking. Dice rolls for the win. One of tp, energy, str, int and durability.

 

i still think the dice rolling thing is... extremely meh.

 

Okay so this is basically the part of the fight where Strange calls upon Chaos and Order vs. In-Betweener, thanks @Amatsu-Mikaboshi for bringing it up. It actually serves to show exactly what I'm saying about Strange. Oh, also in that fight he easily summons the Crimson Bands that can themselves hold pretty much any physical being at least to Hulk level.

Anyways, he calls on Chaos and Order. They don't go "hey we need to help Strange, so let's lend our powers to him." He just goes "I'm gonna channel their power now" (Note: the best manuscripts do not say "I'm gonna channel their power now."). This is how Strange always works in his hardest fights. He channels power from other beings. The bands are channeling power from Cyttorak. He channels power from the Falleen (Faltine? Can't remember). In one fight on his thread he just summoned the Falleen fight for him (Agamotto is just 1 of them, I think there were 3). If there were evidence that he usually had to "ask" these beings stuff and they decided, that would be one thing. But he doesn't "ask" Chaos and Order. He doesn't ask Cyttorak. He just channels, and it works. Now, I'm not saying he takes over their minds or anything and "forces" them necessarily, I'm just saying when he does stuff like that he doesn't worry about it not working. Maybe there have been times when it hasn't, but I AINT SEEN IT.

BLEACH???

I actually just thinking about it, have a theory on that. These gods and powerful beings want their names spread. Cyttorak especially has been shown to not care what Juggernaut did so long as it showed his power (till the last few years where writers have decided to make him care). These beings Strange summons probably do what he asks because it shows their power as well. Anyways, the reason I absolutely refuse to prep Strange is because his summons work, and they work quickly, as do all his other powers.

So before he faced Shuma-Gorath he merged his body with an infinite being and beat it? And that's a bad thing? No one in this draft, save maybe Onslaught, could hope to touch Shuma anyway, and Strange has faced Shuma at least twice and I don't know what happened in the other fight, except Strange won. But I'm betting this Arioch character is probably a bit better than, say, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter. And he beat it, again, clearly without prep from that synopsis.

You want Strange prepped, that is fighting Adam Warlock with the IG. If Strange doesn't get his summons that work all the dang time... Well, honestly his matter transmutation, destroying whole worlds, shields, durability, telepathy, stealing people's power, taking out their souls (done to Baron Mordo at least), stopping people in time and all the rest, and his rep for being able to stop the Civil War with a word... That should win pretty much all these matches. There's lots more I could chase down on Strange but I shouldn't even need to. If he doesn't get the stuff he normally uses, well, oh well.

I'm not prepping Strange, and I don't care how many losses I take for it.

The_Chim, maybe there's a way we can both lose this match.

I'd vote Thanos over Darkseid. He's much more consistent and has had fewer Avatar crap losses. I don't really view them as all that close either.

Oh and as for the WWH thing, I didn't mean Strange's power is toned-down in terms of him having actually been toned down inside the story by something happening. I mean the writers noticeably just write him at a lesser level so they can actually use him. I'd argue they did that with Sentry a bit as well, although they toned him back up to fight Molecule Man. There's no way Strange's fight with Hulk displays what he has done or even has been stated to still be able to do.