CT Plot holes in the OT that weren't plot holes until they made the PT

I understand what you mean. But it was hardly a prolonged force choke and she was a young woman. Elsewhere in the film she was portrayed as being radiant and healthy. Sure she broke down crying when thinking about Anakin but this hardly constitutes a life of exhaustion. No one dies through being emotionally drained with life's drudgery if things aren't working out.

 

Actually, if they are mere hours away from birth, even with today's medical science, you can still save children if the mother dies at that point. This logic is therefore flawed.
Unless medicine in the GFFA is far behind that which is in our own. And as for learning that the Force can keep people alive? We never see this on screen. The only time it is mentioned is from a known liar. His words are as trustworthy a source as Josef Goebbels' words.

This is just another example of fans reaching so far into the PT trash that they are pulling out stuff that isn't there.

 

And if you think I am being disrespectful towards any members, go back and read my posts. The only disrespect you'll find within my words are directed towards the PT itself, not it's Defenders.

 

I think it boils down to this

Surviving to raise Leia>Death due to injury>Lost will to live

in that order

 

Quote: Generally, there is a distinction between a direct maternal death that is the result of a complication of the pregnancy, delivery, or management of the two, and an indirect maternal death that is a pregnancy related death in a woman with a pre existing or newly developed health problem unrelated to pregnancy. Fatalities during but unrelated to pregnancy are termed accidental, incidental, or non- obstetrical maternal deaths. Not death due to a broken heart AFTER the delivery is completed.

 

a woman with newborn twins has two very good reasons to live

 

Not from my point of view. It would be pretty weird, but it wouldn't be a plot hole, since it wouldn't be a part of the actual plot.

Leia didn't say that Padmé was kind to her. That's not the only kind of kind ( ) - You can also be a kind soul, which is something that can definitely be said about Padmé. Leia likely sensed that.
There's nothing to suggest that she knows when Padmé died, BTW. I don't know why she doesn't know, but it hardly matters.

Luke and Leia are not the same person. They're quite different from eachother and the basis for the difference between them is actually illustrated in ROTS, when we see Leia wide awake on Alderaan and Luke fast asleep on Tatooine. You may take away from that what you will, but it goes hand in hand with the way they behave in the next trilogy: Leia, the idealistic politician who concentrates on the here and now and Luke, the adventurous boy with his head in the clouds.
This leads me to believe that Leia was, subconsciously, more aware of the situation than Luke was.

He probably cared more about the present drama than connecting all the dots, yes. I would have, too, especially when it came to something as minor as this. At the same time, I think it is consistent - not with how I used to interpret the scene from ROTJ, but in an unexpected way that works just fine.





- Where is Padmé?
- I'm here!
/LM

 

When you say she was kind, but there are two different kinds of kind - she was a kind soul. What other 'kind' was Leia supposed to be alluding to? What other kind could she have meant other than she was a caring soul? She was..kind of ugly? Kind of smelly? When speaking of someone in that context, kind has only one meaning. (Sorry to be pedantic) lol

 

Not seeing Padme's fate would have been more dramatic than juxtaposing Padme's death with Vader's "birth"?

 

To me a plot hole is when a piece of the narrative is missing and something becomes odd or strange because of it. Here we know that Luke and Leia never knew their mother because she died minutes after their birth. So we should expect them not to remember anything about her. But oddly Leia DOES remember her mother but Luke does not. Leia has memories she should not have and we don't know how she got those memories. So a piece of the narrative is missing, in other words a plot hole.
People have tried to expain it away by saying "Leia is talking about Bails first wife."
"Bail showed her pictures of Padme and told her what Padme was like and that is the source of her memories."
"The Force gave Leia those memories." and so on.

Also Luke and Leias mother is not unimportant trivia, Luke asks Leia a direct question about their mother so it mattered to him and in a sense to us, the audience.

I do not agree. Luke asks what Leia remembers about her mother. So obviously those memories are going to be how Padme was in relation to Leia. Luke isn't asking for a biography of Padme, whose name he doesn't even know. So Leia's answer is going to be what she can remember of her mother so how her mother acted towards her is implied in the nature of the question and also the answer.

So what Leia is describing is how her mother acted and looked around her. She was beautiful, but also sad, which is both a look and also how you act. But she was also kind and in this context, kind to Leia. If a mother was kind to strangers but not kind to her children, those children would hardly describe her as kind, would they?

Do not buy it. The "Force Memory Power" is very general and thus it must be applied consistently.
Also Luke and Leia are about as similar as can be from the Force's perspective. They are twins, born of the same woman and Luke actually spent more time with Padme than Leia did. Both are strong with the Force but Luke has had more training and experince with the Force. And don't forget, if we are talking about visions/dreams, those things often happend when your eyes are CLOSED so if either baby was getting Force visions, it would be Luke. Also Luke was also very idealistic, probably more so than Leia. She was a politician, she would have learned early on to lie and use subterfuge.
She was a rebel while playing along in the imperial senate and using her senate credentials as a shield. And if Leia is more focused on the here and now, why would she be the one who gets Force visions of the past? Luke would be a far better candidate here. Luke was raised an oprhan, never knowing anything about his parents and he was curious about both, but probably more about his father. Leia was adopted and called Bail "Father" so she possibly thought less about her "real" parents as she had new ones that took care of her.
In all, it make little sense that Leia would get these "Force Memories" but Luke would not.

To me this explanation makes the hole bigger, not smaller.

Afterall, a big part of PT Jedi dogma was that children should taken in early so that they would not remember or be attached to their parents. But if these children get "Force Memories" of their parents anyway then this precaution is rather useless.
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It doesn't bother me much and given how TPM and AotC played out, I knew that Padme would die in the third one long before I saw it. It was certainly in Lucas power to have a story that has Padme die onscreen but at some point AFTER Luke and Leias birth. I seem to remember some quote by Lucas that said that Luke would be three years old in ep III but I could be misstaken.

Anyway, the films are what they are, and this is a minor complaint. Given Lucas tendency to alter the old films, I am a little suprised that he didn't alter this scene and had neither Luke nor Leia remember anything.
But probably better that he didn't.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Sometimes what you don't see can be very dramatic.

Regardless, I'm usually laughing at that point, so it sets a pretty low bar for drama.

 

Well it seems that some of the proponents for this argue that Leia gets more than her own past, which with Padme would just be her birth.
Some insteadseem to argue that Leia get "memories" of the whole of Padmes life. What she was like as a queen, as a senator etc. That with the Force she can "see" all of Padmes life or all Padmes past.

If so then Luke could get "memories" of Anakin as a padawan and later when he turned and became Vader and all of Obi-Wans attempts at secrecy would be wasted.

If Leia gets nothing more than the memory of her being born and Padme dying then that would be rather traumatic and I have a hard time seeing that she would describe Padme dying in child birth as "beautiful, kind but sad".

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

When the death is that hacky, yes/

They could have done a similar scene to Ruminations where she is fleeing on a ship and puts her head down as he "dies" and becomes Vader, showing that they both sort of die as the people that they were. That would have been better than this ridiculous literal death that we got on screen.

"Here's your newborn babies, what's that? No will to live? Don't care about these babies then? Ok then!"

 

Are those mutually exclusive?

Hacky can be dramatic.

We could call it dramacky.

 

I think visually that scene works pretty well, but as story it's a mess

 

You got me there

Well, there does appear to be a lack of information - at first glance, at least - but I still think that the circumstances are such that the Force must be involved. Throughout the Saga, we are provided with enough information to be able to reach that conclusion.

I agree. It still doesn't affect the plot, though.

I think you're reading something into the dialogue that's not there. She just says "kind", which could mean a number of things. With ROTS in the mix, it's clear to me that she simply sensed Padmé's kindness - possibly, Padmé radiated love upon seeing her children and that's what Leia read as her being a kind person.

I'm not selling - it's yours for free

Well, given the situation, I still think that Leia was more aware of what went on. The thing is, what happens in the movies is what happens in the movies. Padmé dies moments after giving birth and Leia remembers her, though Luke does not. You and I can't say for sure why this is, because we don't know everything about how the Force works. We can, however, make educated guesses - and, more importantly, draw sound conclusions.
One such conclusion is that there is a difference between Luke and Leia that granted Leia the memory and denied Luke the same. Is it that she's a woman? Is there more of Padmé in Leia and more of Anakin in Luke? Was her connection with Padmé stronger because she was inside her longer? Was it the physical positions of the babies after birth? Was the experience more traumatic for Luke (who cried in the scene) and just blocked out from his memory bank - or was it more traumatic for Leia and remembered for that reason? Is the Force actually stronger with Leia? Do they simply have different talents and remembering the unrememberable is one of Leia's?
Who knows?

Leia was hardly attached to Padmé, though.

I remember reading a Lucas quote about that, too! It would've been very interesting to see that version of the story. The whole idea behind it might have been to keep the film more consistent with his original idea regarding Leia's memory. I guess he suddenly came up with the idea of the symbiotic relationship between Anakin and Padmé and just became attached to it.
Maybe he would have altered the scene in ROTJ if he could have. I mean, how would they do that without ruining the composition of the scene?







- What a wonderful smell you've discovered!
- You have done that yourself!
/LM

 

No, we're not. This is an attempt to rationalize a plot hole, with information that isn't there. Sure, we see Force Users look to the future, but we NEVER see them look into the past. To assume so is a faux conclusion drawn from what is on screen.

Therefore, any "Force Rationalization" for Leia remembering her mother is invalid. You want to find something to make it valid, but it just quite frankly doesn't work in the slightest because you're trying to fix something on screen through crazed explanations, which should have just been simply fixed by George while he was making the movie.

 

Let's have a look at what you're saying here:

Yes, we are.

I'm only using available information, such as:
- Leia remembers Padmé from when she was newborn.
- There are Force users.
- Leia has great potential in that area.

I guess we've seen different movies, then. This was said by Yoda, on screen: "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."
Leia telling Luke that she remembers her real mother also happens on screen. Ergo, it happens, period. She actually does remember her. Considering the circumstances around their birth and Padmé's death, the Force simply has to be involved somehow. The exact nature of that involvement is unknown to us, but it's definitely there.

I'm not rationalizing anything. I'm drawing conclusions based on what's in the movies. For some reason, you seem to think that it's far-fetched, but frankly, I don't understand why. This is a story where magic happens. Magic with certain rules attached to it, yes, but those rules are applicable in this case - a case that also shows us that we clearly don't know everything about the Force. How could we? The Jedi are trained for years before they become Knights and even then, they don't know everything there is to learn. A few hours in their galaxy isn't gonna put us on their level of understanding. We've only scratched the surface.





- Do you understand anything they're saying?
- They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force.
/LM

 

The novelizations (ANH, RoTS) do emphasise this somewhat.

 

...and since there is something called "Jedi Master" in the movies, I'd say it's pretty apparent there as well





- Ben Kenobi? Where is he?
- I think he's a she.
/LM

 

I was thinking of:

"It is an energy field and something more. An aura that both controls and obeys. A nothingness that can accomplish miracles. No-one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the Force. Possibly no-one ever will. Sometimes there is as much magic as science in the explanations of the force. Yet what is a magician but a practicing theorist? Now, let's try again."​

​

and:​

​

"An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."​

And you will have time to learn it.​

"Infinite knowledge..." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time, does that require."​

With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever, Perhaps in time, even your physical self.​

Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."​

The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness.​

"Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have..." Yoda mused. "A power greater than all, it is."​

It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.​

Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."​

He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.​

The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.​

"Your apprentice, I gratefully become."​

 

To me, there is an inconsistency with Leia having memories she should not have.
To me the Force explanation doesn't work because it creates more problems than it solves.
Like why Luke doesn't remember, why Leia thinks these are actual memories, and so on.

I am simply taking what Leia says at face value and that means she remembers her mother being kind to her, looking beautifull and looking/actiing sad.
It is the simplest way to interpret what she says.

Why? She and Luke are both newborns, newborns aren't very aware of much of anything. The world is a confusing place of bright light and sounds and new sensations. Also newborns don't see that well.

That something happens in the films doesn't prevent it from being a plot hole.
Leia has memories she should not have. We are given no explanation as to why or how she has these memories. So we have a plot hole/inconsistency.

Various different explanations have been tossed around and again, to me, the Force explanation isn't sound because it raises more questions than it answers.

This is exactly why I find the Force explanation to be flawed, it creates even more questions and seems far too random and arbitrary.
A far simpler explanation is that Bail showed Leia photos of Padme and told Leia what she was like and this gave Leia "memories" of Padme. Far less convoluted.

Well Padme was dead and had been for all of Leia's life.
But the important thing is that if all Jedi children get Force memories of their parents then there is a rsik that they could get visions like Anakin with Shmi. Or they could bump into their parents and want to get to know them and so on. In all, it undermines the Jedi method of taking young children before they get to know their parents.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

If she has them, she should have them.

How is that more simple than taking it as "She was a kind person"?

Because she remembers and Luke doesn't.

The Force works in mysterious ways.

No, but if there's a reasonable way to explain it, it's not a plot hole.

It's only an inconsistency if it's impossible for it to fit. Such is not the case here.

I just find it fascinating. I like the fact that everything isn't spelled out for us. To each his own.

If that's something you're willing to believe in, then go for it. I could accept that scenario, as well.

No system is perfect.





- Master Yoda! You survived.
- Soon, I'll be dead - and you with me.
/LM

 

Circular logic.

How would you know that someone is a kind person? The simplest answer is that this person was kind TO you. The alternative is that you talked to other people that he or she were mind to or you read about this persons kindness. But then you don't really have memories of that person, you only know what other people told you or what you have read about them.
I never met my great grand father, but I have seen his picture and my mother have told something about him. So I know some things about him but I have no memory of him because I never met him.

Circular logic again. The argument goes like this "Why does Leia remember her mother but Luke doesn't? "She is more aware of what is going on." "How do you know that?" "Because she remembers when Luke doesn't."
See the problem?
Luke shares many qualities with Padme, he is forgiving and he has faith in his father when outside evidence should tell him not to. He also shares many qualities with his father. Sure Leia has some of Padme's qualities as well but to me there is no huge difference.
About the only major difference is gender and Leia happens to work where Padme worked.
And that seems a very strange requirement for these "Force memories". You only get them if you are of the same gender and you work where your parent worked. And that still has the problem of Luke not getting any "Force memories" of his father despite having the same gender.

And my problem is that the Force isn't a reasonable way to explain it as it is far too convoluted and creates far more problems than it solves.

If we just make up explanations then how about;
"All females in the SW galaxy automatically get memories of their mother when they are born."
Simple and explains why Luke doesn't remember.
"Leia is talking about Bails first wife and not Padme." Even simpler. Leia thinks that Bail really is her father but his first wife died when she was young and he remarried.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface