Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

While I don't disagree with the "let's see what we can do" approach in general, if, as Yoda seemed to believe, the Force was giving Anakin a vision of the future:

1. What will be, will be, and
2. Sometimes by meddling, one creates that future

And Yoda was absolutely correct on one level: things change, people die and we cannot stop it from happening. We can't stay in school and avoid the cruel job market forever, we can't live happy and healthy in our 20's forever, etc.

And as for "all of the OJO demonstrate a cold, unhealthy, and aloof behavior" = oh, c'mon, there's so many examples that disprove this that I wouldn't know where to start in debunking this myth. It's in the movies, in plain sight.

 

Imo it was the wrong times for lectures because Anakin looked like he would murder someone right now. That Yoda would refrain from researching into this seems really unwise. If Anakin has a force vision, like you said, and he is the chosen one, then you better look into that stuff more closely because it might just be important. Encouraging Anakin to speak about it is the logical next step. But logic ... isn't Yodas strength, is it?

Cold is exactly how I would call anyone who'd use an army of slaves as canon fodder. We can all argue till tomorrow but fact is that what the Jedi did back then goes against all the principles I hold dear.

 

Obi-Wan at least is very disturbed by the implications of the clone army, in the AoTC novel:

P204-207
Obi-Wan stared at the closest embryo, floating contentedly in its fluid, curled and with its little thumb stuck in its mouth. In ten short years, that tiny creature, that tiny man, would be a soldier, killing and, likely, soon enough killed.

He shuddered and looked to his Kaminoan guide.

"Come," Lama Su bade him, walking along the corridor.
...
"Would you care to inspect the final product now?" the Prime Minister asked, and Obi-Wan could hear excitement in his voice. Clearly he was proud of this accomplishment. "I would like your approval before you take delivery."

The callousness of it all stuck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living and breathing and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such conditions, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had began all this was almost too much for him to digest.

The tour took him through the commissary next, where hundreds of adult clones- all young men Anakin's age- sat in neat rows, all dressed in red, all eating the same food in the same manner.

"You'll find they are totally obedient," Lama Su was saying, seemingly oblivious to the Jedi's discomfort. "We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original, of course."

"Who was the original?"

"A bounty hunter called Jango Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself."

The notion that a Jedi might have been used nearly floored Obi-Wan. An army of clones strong in the Force?

"Where is this bounty hunter now?" he asked.

"He lives here," Lama Su replied. "But he's free to come and go as he pleases." He kept walking as he spoke, leading Obi-Wan along a long corridor filled with transparent tubes.

The Jedi watched in amazement as clones climbed up into those tubes and settled into place, closing their eyes and going to sleep.

"Very disciplined," he remarked.

"That is the key," Lama Su replied. "Disciplined, and yet with the ability to think creatively. It is a mighty combination. Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only command an army of life-forms."

And you wanted a Jedi as host? Obi-Wan thought, but he did not say it aloud. He took a deep breath, wondering how Master Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterally crossed the line to create any army of clones. Obi-Wan realised that he had to suppress his need for a direct answer to that right now, and simply listen and observe, gather as much information as he could so that he and the Jedi Council might sort it out.

 

How is a OJO that can't even understand Anakin (and he is really open with his feelings) ever be suited to help the Republic with anything? It's obvious they understand nothing at all about humans. Sending these freaks as ambassadors or putting them in command of soldiers was a really bad idea. Imo the Republic shouldn't have grated them any power at all.

 

If they can't make a Jedi out of him, put him into some other use, like one of them jedi corps.

No, it's not the same. But really, most of the problems they can't solve they can't solve because they apparently have no people skills whatsoever. Take Palpatine for example. They couldn't figure out he was a bad guy and he was really obvious about it.

 

No, again, he went with the "Jedi have a prohibition against attachments" version. Lucas doesn't say "all attachments are bad". His characters don't say "all attachments are bad". The only one saying it is you, because you're the one who made it up.

Did someone say something about having no argument?

Guess what? Anakin's not telling people the situation. Significant plot point. What's Yoda supposed to do, mind-rape him?

How does anyone know in any situation what the will of the Force is? By being told some information, I take it, as opposed to communing with the Force?

It was a rhetorical question. "Virgin birth" does not equal "Jesus". ( At least not until Episode VII when we learn that Anakin saved the souls of all mankind. )

Nah, you just see Yoda's role as making all of Anakin's boo-boos go away.

 

Lol, you really change your position a lot, don't you? First you wanted to prove to me that attachments lead to DS use, then suddenly only "some" attachments are bad and not all.

As for Yoda if someone like Anakin sits before me and holds all that power in hands and is basically crying, then yes, I will pry into him. Because that's the only sensible thing to do. But in a universe were apparently no one has a brain, this of course doesn't happen.

Anyway, read this (as if the movies itself weren't obvious enough in their message):

GL:
“In this film, you begin to see that he has a fear of losing things, a fear of losing his mother, and as a result, he wants to begin to control things, he wants to become powerful, and these are not Jedi traits, ... And part of these are because he was starting to be trained so late in life, that he'd already formed these attachments. And for a Jedi, attachment is forbidden.”


Playing dumb is by the way getting you exactly nowhere with me. You are only embarrassing yourself.

 

No.

Never happened.

Once again, I never said "all attachments are bad". Lucas never said "all attachments are bad". Lucas' characters never said "all attachments are bad". You made it up. In case you forgot, I was the one who said attachments saved the day in ROTJ. Putting words in my mouth isn't going to help your case.

Again, Anakin isn't telling anyone what's going on. Thus either Yoda already knows, by the Force or whatever means, or the only way to find out is to mind-rape him. If you're suggesting Yoda should mind-rape Anakin, I rest my case.

That seems kind of familiar. It's like I've seen this information somewhere before.

Ah, there it is.

 

And what was so bad then about his attachment to his mother? I again remind of the quote. GL said clearly, that attachments are forbidden for a Jedi. And the Jedi are the good guys (and there are very few good non-Jedi characters), for all the kids watching they are the role models. If for them attachments are forbidden, then he is sending a clear message here (and there's no need for outright stating the message) that if you want to be a hero you shouldn't attach yourself to anyone. And that is rotten.

Typical exaggeration.
There are many psychological tricks to get someone to talk. Anakin is already close to breaking. He could threaten Anakin that he would find out anyway. Or trying to win his trust. Or whatever. Instead he opted for the doing nothing option, because clearly someone like Anakin couldn't do any damage...

 

Since I'm too lazy to individually respond, my replies are in-line in red.

And my extrapolation: Vader of the OT is a military officer and while he may be evil, he is not the vicious unhinged psychopathic axe-murderer he is portrayed as in the PT. Nowhere is he ever shown slaughtering non-combatants (or anybody, for that matter) or going on murderous rampages. He's shown doing that at least 3 times in the PT.

It's the difference between being a high ranking Nazi SS Officer and being a serial killer.

 

Hm, the only time he really acted like a psychopathic axe murderer was when he killed the Tusken. Everything else (choking Padmé, fighting Obi-Wan, killing the Jedi kids) served one objective or another. In his mind Padmé was a traitor because she she brought a traitor to the new rule (Obi-Wan) with her to kill him. Of course, his attitude was a bit different in ROTS.

 

Exactly.

Palpatine tells him to go to Mustafar and kill the separatists. Wait, how do you know where they are, and why didn't you tell anybody sooner?

Only after going to the Jedi temple and killing everybody there. Wait, we're killing the Jedi too? How about the Senate, should we kill them too?

 

Vader was simply not bothered by Palpatine taking over in a military coup (after all, he would get some sweet, sweet power out of the whole deal as well). He had no repulsion about destroying any of the defenses of democracy because he didn't believe in democracy anyway. And the Separatists ... well, he hated those guys anyway.
Anakin was morally bankrupt the whole movie. Hero my ass. It is all the more irritating that the Jedi wouldn't see how much is wrong with that guy.

At least that's the only way you can read the events in ROTS so they make some sense.

I must admit what bothers me though is his all shocked reaction when Palpatine reveals himself as Sith Lord.

 

"Military discipline" usually involves court martials. Even when a person is suspected of treachery, they aren't simply summarily executed without trial.

Same principles apply to captured enemy combatants. "War is hell" does not excuse war crimes.

Regarding his interrogation of Leia, the novelization makes it clear that it's a torture droid, not just a droid with truth serum. He also conducts a "mind probe" on her (commenting later that her resistance to it is considerable).

 

Janstett: No offense, but your view of PT/OT Vader reminds me of certain Sopranos fans, who casually dismiss Tony's brutality and avarice but take offense to his marital infidelity.

Anyway, our views on morality and culpability are so disparate that we might as well cease this deconstruction. I see Vader as an indefatigable, irredeemable monster; you see him as a misguided but efficient functionary.

 

While Vader is by far my favorite character, he was always a thug. Even if rules were in place about what he does, he would step over them. He is so ruthless in the pursuit of his goals, he will step on anyone or anything to achieve them, including the Emperor himself.
Vader is beyond petty rules and regulations.

 

We don't actually know what the Empire's legal principles are- but the impression I get is that even in the crueler of historical empires, senior people in the military got trials- if only to find out if they were just incompetent or actually corrupt.

Vader's behaviour seems extreme even by those standards.

 

I think I fall somewhere between you and anakinfan in my interpretation of Anakin. I don't think that he was clinically insane (as anakinfan seems to believe, correct me if I am wrong), but I do think that he acted in a rather impulsive manner with desperate rationalizations because he still wants to think of himself as on the right side (even when he knows he's not).

I do think Palpatine's actions deeply bothered and angered Anakin -- him saying he would certainly like to kill Palpatine after having it confirmed that he's Sidious seems a pretty good indication. Like you, though, I don't think Anakin cared about destroying democracy and didn't believe in it (AOTC seems to indicate as much). He loved the Republic because it was his home, not because it was a democratic system.

The way I see it, Anakin's biggest issue is that he's trying to do the right thing, but he's not willing to sacrifice for it. He tries to do the right thing by turning Palpatine in to the Jedi. But when it comes down to it, he's not willing to let them kill Palpatine because he needs him to save Padmé. And once he's implicated himself in Mace's murder, he gives in. He simply gives in and decides to temporarily "join" Palpatine to get the information he needs and because he intends to kill Palpatine himself (once he's no longer useful) and rule the galaxy. And he rationalizes his actions as being permissible because he will end the war and create the Empire (which he believes -- and has probably always believed -- would make the galaxy a better place).

Where I differ with some people here, though, I guess, is that I don't really see how anything Anakin does in the PT is worse than his complicity in Alderaan's destruction in ANH. No, he didn't order it carried out -- that's certainly true. But he stood by and did nothing, despite being very highly ranked and despite the enormous amount of practical and logical reasons not to destroy the planet, even leaving aside the horrific moral implications.

Saying that Anakin isn't responsible for the destruction of Alderaan is similar, to me, as saying that high-ranking Nazis are not responsible for the Holocaust. True, they might not have conceived of the notion nor did they give the exact order, but they did not try to stop it and, more importantly, they helped play a role in carrying it out. In this case, Anakin played his part by intimidating and restraining Leia -- he didn't refuse to participate by any stretch of the imagination.

I've always found that ROTS in particular was a very important film in the Saga simply because it finally gave Anakin's victims faces.

 

Who said his attachment to his mother was "bad"?

I again remind you that I don't need to be reminded, because I was saying the same thing in my posts before the first unnecessary "reminder":

But feel free to keep reminding me of things I already said several times.

In other words, he's saying whatever you say he's saying, and that's all there is to it. Good argument.

Unfortunately, no impressionable children watching the films have any chance of becoming a Jedi. They have no midichlorians. The Force isn't real. Thus, the apparently unthinkable task of having to abide by the rules of the Jedi order is something they'll never have to face. And you're still forgetting that the hero of Return of the Jedi was attached to someone.

They only work on the weak-minded.

Yoda's not a threatener. The Jedi aren't spoiled helicopter parents or bullies. That's not how they're characterized. They have a doctrine against aggression which is kind of hard to miss. You're confusing them with people in the real world who are used to getting their way. This is "Qui-Gon should have choked Watto" territory. You're welcome to it.

 

Sure, his mind was in turmoil. He wanted all kinds of bad things (dark side power, rule of an empire and so on) but he also wanted to keep his friends. He wanted everything at once and only very late did he realize he would have to chose.

Here's my interpretation of what happened:

Like we know, Vader wasn't enamored with the concept of the Death Star. He probably knew it would only generate sympathy for the rebellion. But stopping the destruction of Alderaan would be close to an act of treachery (because the Emperor certainly ordered the weapon tested on a living plane). So he didn't and instead started to plot against the Emperor. In TESB he tells us he wants to restore order to the galaxy. Using the DS created chaos in the galaxy and Palpatine was behind all that. Therefore, to restore order, the center of chaos had to be destroyed: Palpatine.

Anyway, you are of course right that the destruction of Alderaan also rests on Vaders shoulders because he did have the power to do something against it. He coldly and willingly chose not to.