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CT Plot holes in the OT that weren't plot holes until they made the PT

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by KilroyMcFadden, Mar 27, 2013.

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  1. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    I wasn't disagreeing with you, just illustrating how the story probably hung together better in its various OT-era conceptions, and mutated during the making of the PT in the interests of the specific plotlines for those specific films at the time (probably).
     
  2. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    I don't see it that way at all. I see it as as a slow progression to the dark side, but he always had free will to make the right or wrong choice, not predestined to be complete evil by the force.

    Not predestined by the Force. Predestined by the storytellers, which is a big difference, and a foolish storytelling decision given the CT far more strongly pushes the idea of constant free will and the lack of predestiny.

    TPM did show Anakin being a great pilot at the age of 9 which is not an infant (a framing tactic),

    Not a framing tactic. Ridicule. Because Anakin being a great pilot at age 9 is, frankly, ridiculous.

    Even when he becomes Vader he isn't complete evil, as both Padme and Luke knew there was still good in him.

    For someone who later in the post wags his finger at me for allegedly passing off opinion as fact you seem to be curiously skipping that dichotomy here.

    Having Anakin discovered already in his late teens or 20s would only have served to make his turn to the dark side much more abrupt and problematic.

    Because per an in-universe source from the films, it's impossible to be seduced by the Dark Side past the age of 9? Is that where we're going here? There were dozens of ways to tell the story of Anakin's fall without having to resort to blaming his problems as an adult on being a snotty kid.

    In fact I found Luke's near turn in ROTJ was much more abrupt than Anakin's full turn, that he was manipulated for almost his whole life instead of just a few hours.

    Luke had no contact at all with Obi-Wan or Yoda for a good twenty years of his twenty-three odd years that we see him in at ROTJ. If anything Owen didn't want him to go anywhere near the Jedi. How's that manipulation for almost his whole life?

    It also would have made the PT films just a rehash the OT films too much, but I guess some fans may have preferred that more lazy route.

    Could you be a bit more patronising? I didn't quite get a full plate of it over here. Calling it a "lazy route" is a bit amusing given all of the repeated story elements and imagery used in the PT that were originally out of the CT, right down to having matching cremation scenes and podrace glasses that look a lot like Vader's during the trench run.

    The PT films clearly shows Anakin was a good, but very flawed person, the prophecy never stated the chosen one would be perfect.

    Show me the scene in which the prophecy is recited onscreen and I might agree with you.

    As for kids not being morally complex is simply your opinion you are passing off as a fact, an opinion I don't share with you. The writers of The Walking Dead would disagree with that opinion as well as Lucas and many other writers. Still you have every right to it, but it isn't a fact.

    Um, yes it is a fact. Hollywood writers might not agree with me, but people who actually study child psychology for a living actually do.
    Also are you saying Lucas and other film makers should only follow a set of rules to storymaking instead of being creative? Again I disagree that any fim maker should have to follow some strict set of rules to make an acceptable and predictable film.

    Rules of narrative are there so the story makes sense to the audience, otherwise you might as well pack up your soapbox and go home. It's as basic a requirement as "do not leave plotholes all over the road of your film." Great storytellers can break narrative rules, certainly. But George Lucas is a far better creator of grand visions than actual stories. It's why ESB, written by Lawrence Kasdan and directed by Irvin Kershner, allowed the PT to be made, and The Phantom Menace, written and directed by George Lucas, did not. GL getting lucky with ANH does not change that phenomenon.

    I have seen these arguments before and they are pretty thin.

    Is that your opinion, or a fact?

    The PT, just like the OT shows you can choose good or evil, but unlike Luke, Anakin was suduced to choose evil and while he always had a choice doesn't mean he still can't be influenced to make the wrong one or that circumstances can still be against you.

    So again: why dress Anakin in black more or less throughout the trilogy? Why play him up as an angry, resentful 9 year old unless you are implying he is the Bad Seed?

    There was an episode of CSI that mirrored this. A serial killer in prison was trying to get a pardon into a mental hospital by claiming he wasn't really at fault, it was his bad genes that made him predisposed to murder, to be evil. That he could not help that he was predisposed and needed help, he never really had a choice. However ones of the CSIs testified that he also had the same bad genes, but he still could choose to still be a good person, and that the genes didn't stop the killer from making the right choices instead of the wrong ones, also both had rough childhoods.

    Don't see the relevance, unless we're getting into midichlorians again...
     
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  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Actually, we don't know that, but close enough.

    Appeal to ignorance.

    "Destined to evil from birth" is expressed absolutely nowhere in the PT. It exists only in the minds of misguided fans. On the contrary, this is what we hear in TPM: He gives with no thought of reward. He knows nothing of greed.

    This makes no sense. The PT is meant to occur in the same universe/continuity as the OT. Thus it is false to say that he can't choose good, because we know that he eventually does choose good. The PT simply depicts an earlier period during which he did not always choose good. As far as the laughable contention that black clothing means one's fundamental nature must be evil, dressing Anakin in black is no different than dressing "fundamentally evil" Luke in black during ROTJ.
     
  4. Chainmail_Jedi

    Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2013
    The prophecy was an extremely poor decision to add to the mythology of Star Wars. It was much more compelling to have Darth Vader, a man who after so many years of making all the wrong choices, finally makes one good choice with his last act in the Galaxy. That appeals to my humanity far more than the tale of Jesus in space.
     
  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    This is true with or without the PT.
     
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  6. Chainmail_Jedi

    Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2013
    But the reasoning is different, and that's what matters, and that's one the reasons the PT is trash. Why is more important than How, especially from the moral aspects of mythology
     
  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    No, it isn't, and that statement said nothing about reasoning whatsoever. It only talked about "wrong" and "good" choices. The PT doesn't change anything about that, it just shows the wrong choices.
     
  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    He had the choice to follow his destiny or not. In the end he made the right choice which happened to be following his destiny . To me it adds to the moment. It doesn't change the reasoning and it doesn't make the PT trash.
     
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  9. Chainmail_Jedi

    Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2013
    FALSE

    OT Prior to PT - He did it because he finally decided it was right thing to do, he did it out of his own free choice
    with the PT - It was his pre-determined destiny to Destroy the Sith
     
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  10. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    that TESB made Star Wars popular, ANH
    Well the OT are full of plot holes, even the beloved TESB, which had mixed reviews upon it's release. Just the downer open ending broke many of the basics you cling to. These requirements are nothing more than an
    ideology that hampers art which is subjective. Lucas being only an idea man is a very tired and heavly debunked argument that I have seen a million times. Also Lucas was very involved in TESB, including the writing. I don't see how TESB allowed the PT to be made, ANH gets that honor as that was the most popular and fan favorite film for years and allowed all the future films to be made. TESB only became the favor of the month in recent years, and as I already stated, had many mixed reviews upon it's release, many fans were very disappointed in it and thought it was a let down to ANH. To quote 1980 Starlog's review of TESB:

    Han Solo maneuvers the Millennium Falcon into a hole in an asteroid to hide while he makes repairs. Princess Leia sees something outside the ship. They go out to investigate — wearing only oxygen masks. No spacesuits. They explore the inside of the tunnel they are in, walking around the ship — walking?!!”

    “All the chasing and racing is very exciting, but it doesn’t seem to have a larger purpose. Where before we were made aware that these events were one small part of a larger rebellion, now it seems as if everything revolves around Darth Vader versus Luke Skywalker. The focus has been narrowed. The rest of the battles are therefore trivialized by comparison, and the sense of epic is weakened.”


    “Structurally, the film is flawed by its need to imitate its predecessors “formula” of fast-paced cross-cutting. We cut back and forth between Luke and Yoda on Dagobah and Leia and Han in the asteroids, and the time sense of both sets are events is distorted. How long were Han and Leia fleeing? How long is Luke studying?
    “Why not stay with Han and Leia until they leave the asteroid and head for the Bespin system, then cut to Luke arriving at Dagobah and stay with him until he leaves?”

    “Because the film now runs at such a fast pace throughout its entire length, it can’t build to an additional peak of excitement at the end when Luke finally confronts Darth Vader. It’s an exciting fight, yes — but we’re already at our peaks, we can’t get any more excited — and darn it, we should.
    “The fight should be a climax, and it isn’t, and that’s one of the reasons why we’re left feeling just a bit unsatisfied.”



    Starlog regarding Luke:
    “He isn’t a hero because he hasn’t demonstrated his ability to grow–and that’s what heroism really is: discovering that you can master what looks like an impossible challenge.” “If Luke doesn’t learn anything, then he can’t grow. And if this isn’t about growth, then it isn’t a story. In fact, it isn’t even a very good chapter.”


    Again, I don't see this phenomenon that TESB made Star Wars popular or successful, ANH did that, and both are full of polt holes and disregard so many so called basics.
     
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  11. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    No, He finally choose to follow destiny, of his own free choice, eastern culture believe both exist together, while western culture believes only one or the can can exist. Lucas is big on eastern culture.
     
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  12. Chainmail_Jedi

    Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2013
    We Disagree.

    I am going to go with the common definition of Destiny;
    The events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future

    Necessarily happen means it will happen regardless of his choice. Anakin/Dark Vader was going to destroy the Sith no matter what, because it was his destiny. It was pre-determined. This is the problem I have, it's not as appealing to the humanity in all of us when it's something that's pre-determined.
     
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  13. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Um, no. You're mixing two separate logical fallacies: appeal to authority (or popularity) and argumentiam ad ignoranem. My objection comes under neither. In fact it's Slicer87 who makes a logical fallacy when he says, "...the prophecy never stated the chosen one would be perfect. " That is argumentiam ad ignoranem, because we have no statement of the prophecy from which one can make that assertion. It is attempting to argue "Because the prophecy never says the chosen one would be perfect, the chosen one therefore is not perfect."
     
  14. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    And yet, against that, you've got 9 year old Anakin being focused on lovingly by the camera as he delivers a good impression of a murderous look when Mace Windu tells him he won't be trained as a Jedi, not to mention Anakin testily demanding to know what his emotions have to do with anything. Shmi has it in common with Padme that she sees her son with rose-coloured glasses. And then, for the entire run of AOTC and ROTS, Anakin in a dress code that colour-coordinates rather well next to Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones in Men in Black. Those are direct artistic decisions in the realm of costuming taken to express Anakin as evil, no matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears and say "It's expressed nowhere in the PT". And for the record it is expressed in the PT: by Palpatine, who says Anakin is fulfilling his destiny.

    You keep trying to hide behind the franchise's plot information as a means of avoiding criticising the storytelling. They are two entirely different things. I am saying the moral compass of the CT is clear and apparent. That of the PT is horribly muddled, and not by design. That has nothing to do with whether the PT and CT are "meant to occur in the same universe/continuity", I'm telling you the storytelling used to express how the rules of that contunity work sucks.

    On costuming: tell me, when does Luke first don his black clothing? Is it during the run of ANH? Nope, all white costuming there with an orange pilot suit at the end. Is it during the run of ESB? Nope, all white clothing, pilot fatigues, and then a tan one-coloured outfit. Is it during ROTJ, when he's most at risk of falling to evil? Um, yes. When does Anakin first don black clothing? Right from the start of AOTC. Which he maintains throughout. Come on. It's time to stop making passing insults and join the adults over here.
     
  15. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Is that a fact or an opinion, as I've asked you before? We use the word 'debunked' in respect of facts.

    As it is, quite possibly the reason you've heard the argument a million times is because it's dead on and anyone including Blind Freddy and his dog can see that. It is commonly understood Lucas had far more creative, script, and directorial control over ROTJ andthe PT than he ever had over ESB (and to a lesser extent ANH, since he was on a tight budgetary leash). There is no coincidence that ESB and ANH are far, far better works of art than ROTJ and the entirety of the PT. You yourself have said ANH and ESB are full of plotholes as well. That in itself also proves the point that George is a hell of a lot better at ideas than he is at executing them.
     
  16. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013
    saintheart is crushing this thread
     
  17. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    ...Hmm. I might bow out of it for a while on that note... :)
     
  18. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013
    I meant that in a good way, as in your argument is strong. I'd like to continue to watch this crushing!
     
  19. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Yes, but anger, fear, aggression, these are the path of the Dark Side. I must go and meditate for a while; preferably in a room with cool sunshades out of the seventies... :D

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Again here you are twisting my words into a strawman rather Which makes your choice of a nit pick rather odd

    Again, all that is you passing your own mere opinion as fact. Just because you like TESB more doesn't make it a better film than the others except only for you, but here you are pushing it as fact again. The reason that argument is so common is because PT haters tent to just parrot the same arguments they read on the internet over and over in great groupthink circle. Again, TESB and ANH being better works is merely just your own opinion and many disagree with you.

    I don't even know were you get that from, Anakin, just like Luke has free choice but keeps making the wrong ones. Even before TPM was released we knew what Anakin's fate would be because us older fans have been spoiled. There is nothing in the CT that pushes constant free will, both Palps and Vader talk about destny quite a bit and foreseeing the future as does Yoda. As I explained earlier, Lucas is big on eastern culture which believes free will and fare are not mutually excusive, that just like Luke, Anakin always had free choice to follow his destiny or not. Just be cause you were exposed to spoilers doesn't make it any less so. Your rather weak strawman argument of this doesn't prove otherwise. In the OT, both Obi-Wan and Yoda push Luke to fight the sith behaving like it is his destiny.



    Again merely just your opinion you are stating as a fact again. It shows that despite Anakin not having any Jedi training yet, the force already gives him great piloting skills. Of course this is a series with magic space knights, faster than light travel, moon sized space stations, space slugs, silly robots, and walking in zero G space caves, it is all ridiculous. Which makes your choice of a nit pick rather odd IMHO.



    Wow, just wow, what a obvious and shameless strawman and Tu quoque . Both Padme and Luke state there is still good in Anakin/Vader, which means he is not complete evil, this is a fact in the films, not just my opinion. You can frame it any way you want but you argument is really bad here and the Tu quoque doesn't disprove anything even if it was true.




    It is only stated in the films that the choosen one would destroy the sith and bring balance to the force, it isnever stated in the film the choosen one would be a perfect Jedi, so what I said is still true.





    [FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black]Here you go again twisting my words into a strawman argument. I never said anything to imply that and you full well know it. As I explained before by introducing Anakin at a much older age would result in the story having to rush and condense his training, [/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT]character development, and turning, plus we would understand less of his upbringing. The story as is doesn't blame him as an adult solely on being a snotty kid, just your opinion and another strawman argument, starting to see a pattern here.



    Purposely misunderstanding my statement, what a nice tactic. I was pointing out that Anakin's manipulation was more believable since it was done slowly over most of his life, instead of the rush job the Sith gave Luke for a few hours in ROTJ.

    I will reply to your other "arguments" at another time since it is getting late.
     
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  21. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    The eastern version is common as well, and again most of your statement is opinion, not fact, and I don't share yours at all.
     
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  22. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    So you like fallacy arguments LOL.
     
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  23. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Pot calling kettle, over. You have used the same dismissive 'factual' statements to justify your position thus far, alleging arguments to have been "thin" and "debunked" without producing one factual scintilla to verify them. Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, proof lies on him who asserts, not he who denies.

    Pot calling kettle, over. Liberally laced with appeal to popularity: "many disagree with you". With gross overgeneralisation: "because PT haters tend to just parrot the same arguments they read on the internet." Got any proof for the latter assumption? Some IP addresses, login times, cut and pastes? Anything? On "many": I couldn't care less whether the entire population of the former USSR disagrees with me, it no more makes my point less valid than it makes yours any more potent. That's why it's a logical fallacy in debating, which you have a problem with being used against you but no problem using yourself.

    [quote="Slicer87, post: 50628975, member: 1377963]There is nothing in the CT that pushes constant free will, both Palps and Vader talk about destny quite a bit and foreseeing the future as does Yoda.[/quote]

    "There is still good in him!"
    "I feel the good in you, the conflict!"
    "You couldn't bring yourself to destroy me before, and I don't believe you'll destroy me now!"
    "You were right, Luke ... you were right about me. Tell your sister you were right."

    [quote="Slicer87, post: 50628975, member: 1377963]Again merely just your opinion you are stating as a fact again. It shows that despite Anakin not having any Jedi training yet, the force already gives him great piloting skills. Of course this is a series with magic space knights, faster than light travel, moon sized space stations, space slugs, silly robots, and walking in zero G space caves, it is all ridiculous. Which makes your choice of a nit pick rather odd IMHO.[/quote]

    There's this little phrase called "suspension of disbelief." Google it sometime. For the moment: it refers to the internal consistency of the universe concerned and the extent to which what's later revealed matches the expectations already given to us. Magic space knights who've been revealed to us over three films in another galaxy with a lot of setup does not offend suspension of disbelief. Small children being great pilots when the expectation left to us by Obi-Wan in no way mentions nosepicking kids being said pilots does. Surely you can do better!

    [quote="Slicer87, post: 50628975, member: 1377963]Wow, just wow, what a obvious and shameless strawman and Tu quoque . Both Padme and Luke state there is still good in Anakin/Vader, which means he is not complete evil, this is a fact in the films, not just my opinion. You can frame it any way you want but you argument is really bad here and the Tu quoque doesn't disprove anything even if it was true. [/quote]

    I'm pointing out your intellectual dishonesty. You have a problem separating opinion from fact. So do Padme and Luke. It's not tu quoque, it's trying to put it in terms you understand.

    [quote="Slicer87, post: 50628975, member: 1377963]It is only stated in the films that the choosen one would destroy the sith and bring balance to the force, it isnever stated in the film the choosen one would be a perfect Jedi, so what I said is still true.[/quote]

    Read what I said above: you have commited argumentiam ad ignoraniam, because you're arguing a positive from a negative:
    A: The prophecy does not say the Chosen One is perfect.
    B: Because there is an absence of the proposition that the Chosen One is perfect, I can assert as a consequence that the Chosen One is imperfect.
    C: Profit!
    D: Um, no, because one does not follow as cause and effect. A void ('no statement that the Chosen One is perfect') does not prove one of the two possibilities that emerge ('the Chosen One is imperfect') because it leaves the alternative open ('the Chosen One is perfect and the prophecy is silent on the subject').

    [quote="Slicer87, post: 50628975, member: 1377963][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black]Here you go again twisting my words into a strawman argument. I never said anything to imply that and you full well know it. As I explained before by introducing Anakin at a much older age would result in the story having to rush and condense his training, [/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT]character development, and turning, plus we would understand less of his upbringing. The story as is doesn't blame him as an adult solely on being a snotty kid, just your opinion and another strawman argument, starting to see a pattern here. [/quote]

    Once again: acknowledge your attempts at dismissal are opinion rather than fact, and then I'll consider them. Until then, pot calling kettle black.


    [quote="Slicer87, post: 50628975, member: 1377963]
    Purposely misunderstanding my statement, what a nice tactic. I was pointing out that Anakin's manipulation was more believable since it was done slowly over most of his life, instead of the rush job the Sith gave Luke for a few hours in ROTJ. [/quote]

    Just be a man about it and admit you got it wrong. I promise, you'll feel much better afterwards.
     
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  24. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Well, you've given him enough to give the Captain a taste for them. Quod erat demonstrandum.
     
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  25. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    A murderous look? That look is no different from that of other children who are angry because something they really wanted was denied to them. Unlike normal children who are merely being denied a passing fancy, however, Anakin have just experienced all his dreams being crushed. Qui-Gon had promised him he would become a Jedi and it was his desire to be a Jedi that allowed for him to make the toughest decision of his life: leaving his mother behind.
    Of course he wants to know why his dreams are being denied to him and of course he’s angry, and disappointed, and devastated – who wouldn’t be?; his behaviour is no different from that of normal people who had a similar experience – in fact, I have seen grown up people behave much worse than Anakin in such situations.

    It doesn’t change the fact that Anakin willingly helps Qui-Gon and co. without demanding anything in return. Shmi’s words are an accurate description of what we see on screen.

    IMO, Anakin’s developing costumes through the PT very much mirrors Luke’s in the OT (and both reflects the increasing risk of falling to the dark side): in the first movie they both wear light-coloured clothes. In the second movie their clothes has become darker – Anakin’s much more so than Luke’s, which make sense because unlike Anakin, Luke didn’t have a Sith Lord whispering in his ears for 10 years and Anakin is therefore closer to the dark side than Luke is. And in the last movie both wear dark clothes and both have to make their choice.
     
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