Senate Atheism 5.0 - Is Atheism a belief?

Especially if that religion requires you to ritualistically mutilate your own and your children's genitals.

I mean, really, Jabbadabbado was asking for this to be brought up by mentioning it so flippantly.

 

I read it, and it's irrelevant. Many atheist Jews are actively religious. And by "many" I mean hundreds of thousands, not necessarily a majority of practicing Jews, but likely as big a contingent as the orthodox. And there are likely plenty of atheist orthodox Jews as well, though I don't know any personally. For many, many jews, the existence of God is in fact not "the central part." The central part is "Chosen by God" as a metaphor for the commitment to the perpetuation of self identity through the ongoing practice of the religion as handed down across generations through the process of educating children in the faith and honoring the holidays in a family and community environment.

It tends not to make sense to Christians, because they don't understand Judaism and refuse not to look at it through the lense of their own religion.

 

You can't be openly atheist and a religious Jew. Religious Judaism requires belief in God. They're cultural Jews, and probably ethnic Jews, but they're not religious Jews. They're Jewish, sure, but they're not religious Jews.

Shema Yisrael: "Hear, O' Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One!"

I know it's possible for a religion to have no God. Like Buddhism. But Judaism is not one of those religions.

There are a few people who believe Jesus was just a man who died, or think Jesus never even existed, and they call themselves Christians for the moral teachings of Jesus and for the culture (Christmas, Easter holidays, etc.). Are these people Christians? Yes. Are these people cultural Christians? Are these people moral Christians? Yes. Are they religious Christians? No.

 

Well maybe I am confused by this since I am an "ex-Christian"... but Judaism is described as being one of the monotheistic Abrahamic religions, so being an atheistic follower of that does not really follow logically. It's not really comparable to something like Buddhism, for example.

 

Summer Dreamer, you don't have the authority to deny a Jew his/her faith merely because you mistakenly believe that religion requires belief in God. That's your Christianity doing the talking for your brain to paper over your ignorance. Hundreds of thousands of atheist Jews in the U.S. and Israel and elsewhere who practice their religion devoutly will dispute this.

I think you have to have really observed modern Jews exercising their faith to fully understand it.

 

It still feels like you didn't read the rest of my posts, or did you just miss my point on Christians who don't believe in Jesus?

This is not "my Christianity doing the talking."

Anyways:
"the commitment to the perpetuation of self identity through the ongoing practice of the religion as handed down across generations through the process of educating children in the faith and honoring the holidays in a family and community environment"
is NOT Faith. It's education, it's commitment, it's ethnic practices... it's Culture.

You're just doing this really weird semantic argument.

 

No. It's practicing the religion. You're caught up in a false analogy to Christianity, because Christians who don't believe in God REALLY are NOT Christians. There's no denying that. But Judaism is markedly different for a number of reasons.

 

Not true. You can culturally, or even morally, be Christian without God and Jesus. Millions are like that. You just can't be considered a religious Christian, even if you go to Church, if your confident in your atheism.

You're doing something really weird.

There can be cultural Jews/Christians who aren't religious Jews/Christians.

But you're saying these atheist Jews are still religious Jews, while these atheist Christians aren't really Christian. And then using this as proof to why the Jewish religion is superior to the Christian religion. Because, according to someone, there can be atheist religious Jews but not atheist religious Christians.

Who's making up these weird distinctions and definitions? You?

 

The Jewish atheism entry in Wikipedia would seem to agree with Summer Ghost's description.

Similarly, sources like My Jewish Learning have this to say:

Almost everything that you have described is far more associated with culture than actual religious belief. In many cases, the two can overlap (such as the relationship between "Utah Mormon culture" and LDS doctrines), but they are not the same thing.

 

I know cultural/ethnic Jews who are not religious. And I know religious Jews who are atheist. And there is a recognizable difference between the two, and for you to lump them together is wrong. American Jewish leaders are much more concerned about the former, but embrace the latter, because they understand the central tenet of the religion as the perpetuation of Jewish identity.

I'm not going to argue with your semantics about Christianity. But Jews can be considered religious jews, and most definitely consider themselves exactly that, if they practice their religion faithfully and are atheists.

And, per Kimball, there is a difference between cultural/ethnic Jews who are practicing atheists (who have overtly rejected the religious aspects of Judaism) and atheistic Jews who continue to devoutly practice their religion. You can see in your quote the meaning of the words "official level." Honoring the idea of "God" at an official level is part of the practice of the religion. At an individual level, that is accomplished by saying the prayers and attending the services and following the traditions of the holidays.

 

And the difference is...?
And the sources for that are...?
(Maybe just some are more culturally strict than others)

A Jew can't practice his religion faithfully and devotedly, and be atheist.

And, you said I cannot deny a Jew his/her faith when they have:
"the commitment to the perpetuation of self identity through the ongoing practice of the religion as handed down across generations through the process of educating children in the faith and honoring the holidays in a family and community environment"But how is any of that faith?

 

Jabba your thoughts a few posts back really hit to the heart of the issue. There are various reform and liberal schools of Judaism that teach things similar to what you endorse. And, indeed, they have significant popularity within the US, which probably accounts for your experience. But that viewpoint is ultimately parochial. In the first place, it is not reflective of the broader global trends within Judaism. In the second, the same thing can be done with Christianity. One could point out that Unitarian Universalists, who still style themselves as Christians, and certainly emerged from that tradition, who are nonetheless atheists despite attending "church" every Sunday. In the third, you fail to see that in both cases, these movements are not really "accepted" in any meaningful sense. Nor should they be. They are regarded as weird and apostate by every serious practitioner of their respective religions.

Your approach reduces religion to a series of cosmetic procedures, dietary fads, and group events. Those have never been the defining criteria of a faith, and the Jewish prophets were among the most strident in pointing this out. An atheist who observes religious ceremonies is still only an atheist.

 

Exactly. And I would like to point out that what Jabbadabbado was talking about isn't even popular in the Conservative (moderate) branch and the Reform (liberal), not just the Orthodox (conservative) branch.

 

That last bit amounts to a trite dismissal of a deeply spiritual practice of the Jewish faith that includes heartfelt prayer and core holiday traditions.

The first part ignores that practicing Jews who are atheists are mostly not off founding fringe synagogues, they're completely and fully integrated into the congregations of well-established Synagogues as valued members and fellow practitioners of the faith.

 

"Pray" to who?

What "faith"?

Are they openly and confidently atheist, and do those temples really embrace these people's atheist beliefs, and really believe these atheist Jews are also religious?

What's the difference between theist religious cultural ethnic Jews and atheist religious cultural ethnic Jews and atheist nonreligious cultural ethnic Jews? Since you're the one drawing a distinction between those last two.

 

You simply cannot get out of your Christian mindset. Praying honors the commitment to prayer, and everything surrounding prayer and observation honors the commitment to Judaism, which honors the commitment to Jewish identity. That IS the faith.

I do not believe there is a useful distinction in Judaism between a theist religious cultural ethnic Jew and an atheist religious cultural ethnic Jew. Atheistic nonreligious cultural ethnic Jews are just that. Non religious. Some reject the religion as a consequence of their atheism. Some have lost interest. Some have married Christians and find it inconvenient to believe or practice, etc. There are any number of configurations. They represent a real challenge to Jewish identity and unity in a way that atheistic religious cultural ethnic Jews (lol, that's exhausting to type) do not.

 

Prayer that honors the commitment to prayer, but isn't prayer to anyone?? This isn't a Christian thing, this is an English language thing.

Also, Faith is belief without objective proof. (Not a commitment to something vague, like Judaism. What exactly are atheist Jews committing themselves to? To commit themselves to commit themselves?)

"I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow."
"I have faith that God exists."
"I have faith that we'll get through this tough time, and our best days are yet to come."


And I asked what is the difference between the atheist nonreligious Jew and the atheist religious Jew, since that's the distinction that you're trying to make.

 

It seemed to me that this discussion hinged on the definition of religion, so i looked it up.

Definition of RELIGION - (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

Jabbadabbadoo is using the second definition, while everyone else is using the first.

So everyone is right, and everyone is wrong, and everyone has been talking past each other. Hooray!

 

The formal prayers are what they are in Judaism. You say them, and if you contemplate their meaning as you say them, then you are honoring their true purpose. I have to assume informal prayer isn't something an atheist Jew does very much of, nor is it required by the religion.

And I asked what is the difference between the atheist nonreligious Jew and the atheist religious Jew, since that's the distinction that you're trying to make.

lol. The difference is whether they practice the religion

Obviously, there's a continuum from being uninvolved to being very involved. In that atheists and non atheist practicing jews won't be much different.

Edit. Well done, wannasee. I'd just add that for Judaism as a whole, the second definition tends to be far more central to Jewish conception of religion.

 

It also bears pointing out that all of what you're saying cannot be simultaneously true. If they are truly "accepted" then why is no branch of Judaism willing to in fact sign off on such statements as acceptable? And if they are only lapsed members of synagogues that espouse theist beliefs while tolerating their continued presence, how is that different than the lapsed Catholic that continues attending weekly mass after realizing he or she is actually an atheist?

And there is neither anything "heartfelt" nor "meaningful" about, by your own admission, talking to yourself for extended periods daily.

 

But what religious "faith"?

And Jabba is talking about how Orthodox, Conservative, Reform synagogues... the mainstream branches... welcome and embrace people who are openly and confidently atheists, and still consider them to be religious. Yet as Kimball supplied, even the most liberal branch (Reform) rejects that...

Exactly.

Honoring the true purpose of those prayers means BELIEVING in them.

You're going in circles. How are they practicing the religion? They aren't without adhering to the religion's beliefs.

 

I'm not really sure i see why the defense of this not making sense is "this doesn't make sense to ex-Christians", as I don't know for anyone else, but I'm not an ex-Christian. I was never a Christian. I'm looking through Wikipedia's article on the Jewish principles of faith, and I really don't see how all of this can be interpreted to have something to have faith in that is not, at least in some part, talking about a god without some drastic redefinition that would be more befitting of the distinction we do draw in not considering Christians or Muslims to be Jews. I don't see what it is that they're having religious faith in. Certainly not in the same way that Taoism or Buddhism (possibly Shintoism if one distinguishes between spirits and a god) can have faith in without there being a god one believes in. Or Scientology and Raelians, for that matter. Those are all certainly religions that are not theistic in their tenets, but still involve elements of faith, be it aliens, or spirits, or a powerful force that wouldn't match a definition of a god, per se. They certainly have a component of religious faith, but those aren't theistic mindsets.

However, with Judaism, it seems more like there is a presentation that there is a Jewish philosophy, distinct from Jewish religion, and that distinction is being ignored. I'm not really sure how, for example, prayer is considered to be something that one believes in, when one doesn't mean what one is saying. The passover seder starts off with the Kiddush, which includes the following: "Attention, gentlemen, [rabbis, and my teachers]! Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who creates the fruit of the vine. (Amen) Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, Who chose us from all the nations, and elevated us above all tongues, and sanctified us with His commandments." That is, inherently theistic, and so if the claim is that they are taking part in the full observance, then that doesn't seem to get around that that is inherently theistic. I can't find it detailed specifically, but I am presuming then that the commandments in question would, at least in part, include the 10 commandments, if not directly meaning that, which itself explicitly defines the existence of a god.

At this point, the only two ways this seems to go is that either, they are taking part in a ritual that is inherently filled with theistic statements and I don't see how the case can be made that it's an atheistic observance, or all that is removed, in which case I don't see how that is justified as being viewed as religious as it would have been secularised, the same as Christian holidays have been secularised to the point that non-Christians easily take part in them as well.

 

Why is there a need for that when religious Jews who are atheists are not merely tolerated but actively embraced in their synogogues? Judaism would not survive without them. I suspect the vast majority of religious Jews who have PhDs, MDs, MBAs, JDs are atheistic or agnostic. They are not in any way lapsed, as they participate in every required aspect of their religion.

By prayer I was referring to prescribed prayer used in services and during the holidays. These are heartfelt because atheist Jews understand the importance of the story of God as a component of the story of the Jewish people as a founding and constitutional element of Jewish identity. Jewish identity requires the practice of the religion. In the long-term, it's hard to see how Jewish ethnic and cultural identity survives without the ongoing practice of the religion. The role of God in the establishment of Jewish identity is allegorical in the same way that a giant global flood is allegorical. You don't have to believe in it to be heartfelt and spiritual in recognizing and celebrating its importance.

And Summer Dreamer does not get to decide who is or isn't a religious Jew. Atheistic Jews who practice their religion devoutly do not see it any other way but that they are adherents of the faith. And they have the support of their communities in this. And that's because, as I have said, Judaism is at its core primarily about perpetuating Jewish ethnic and cultural identity, which cannot survive without the religion.

Definition of RELIGION - (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance.

Christianity focuses on (1). Judaism focuses on (2). More subtly, the service and worship of God in Judaism doesn't necessarily require belief in God. That is the disconnect for Christians, who often aren't equipped to understand this. Atheist Jews practice the worship God as an allegory for the establishment of Jewish identity. This is not much different than how many modern, educated Christians see much of biblical content as allegorical. Educated Jews have no problem seeing all of it as allegorical. Maintaining and celebrating Jewish identity is the heart of the culture. Period. That's the religion.

Personally, as an atheist, I would find it tedious to be a religious Jew. But I'm not Jewish, so am not invested in the perpetuation of its culture.

 

This paragraph is nonsense. There is not a "need" for anything. But we live in a free society. Or at the very least, there are some societies somewhere on Earth that won't concern themselves with the theological positions of rabbis and synagogues. You claim that they not only accept, but "actively embrace" atheists as members. But why, then, can they not say so? You imply that there is a vast conspiracy of literally thousands (if not millions) of people worldwide, all earnestly insisting that they cannot and do not accept atheism. You suggest that they do so in documents for public consumption, in the teachings to their adherents, in private communiques and in quiet moments with one another. Why? To what possible end?

If you insist that Jewish faith is more powerful and better understood as allegory, and that so many agree with you, why doesn't anyone actually say that? Why pour all the (fake?) fervor into insisting that it isn't? What does anyone gain by discouraging atheism so vigorously when they are, in reality, completely fine with it? How is this stone walling advantageous, or ethically responsible, or even mentally healthy for those who propagate it?

You make a few logical leaps here without anywhere to land. Acknowledging the religion's place in their people's history may well be important. But that's not the same thing as arguing that continued practice of the religion itself is important. They history of Kmt is certainly important to the cultural identity of modern Egyptians (eg "I have killed the Pharaoh!" several millennia past the time there was any such position). Yet, the country is thoroughly Islamic today. Likewise, consider the MacLeod clan again. They clearly embrace the history of their relatives and the magical fairy armies their ancestors once thought would come to their aid, but that's not the same thing as saying they need to continue believing in fairies for their family identity to remain intact.

But nor, frankly, do you or the ones you call friends. Your whole argument stinks of the confusion of heresy with an undercurrent of soft bigotry. Take, for instance, your assertion that no significant number of people with a post-graduate degree could be theists. You aren't really making a point about Jews here, and you certainly weren't drawing on any statistical data to support your assertion. You were simply reiterating your belief that only way to be a theist is to be ignorant and uneducated. Taking this a bit further in your last post, you just flatly declare that "educated" Jews, without caveat or exception understand the religion to be entirely allegorical--even though, again, curiously no one ever admits to such allegory. You assert that the Jewish identity is "threatened" by people who want the cultural experience without the religious observance, when somehow it was not threatened by centuries of active hostility, and scores of people who chose to "pass" as some other ethnicity, and deny the existence of any link at all. Most egregiously, you claim a secret conspiracy to deny that Judaism is accepting of atheism when in practice they are widely accepting of it.

Then, lastly, you inflate all your claims with a lot of garbage the must sound vaguely pious to someone who's never seen an actual religion. For instance, nothing is "spiritual" to a person that does not believe in the supernatural. It can't be. It's a contradiction in terms. You are simply throwing words around. It's not enough to sustain an argument, and it certainly doesn't justify your weird assertions about Judaism.

 

I can't help thinking you don't know many highly educated Jews well to display such ignorance about how well agnostic and atheist Jews are integrated into the practice of their religion. I know atheists who sit on the boards of their synagogues and help oversee Hebrew education of young members, for example. These people aren't infiltrators or secret heretics. They are devout adherents of their religion. Period. Education breeds agnosticism, it's true, but Judaism is sophisticated enough to accommodate encroaching reality, which was my point to begin with. Your mischaracterization of my argument--what conspiracy??--doesn't change the fact. Agnosticism is widely accepted in educated Jewish communities, of which there are of course many, since Jewish tradition and the religion itself values knowledge so highly.