Saga Grouping the the two trilogies as the original saga due to VII. Is this wrong?

I think that parts 7 to 9 will only feel like part of the saga if they are intimately connected to the films that preceded them. So, it sort of depends on what Lucas provides them and what Michael Arndt, JJ Abrams and the other writers/creators do with it. If they can make meaningful connections to the prior films, then it will be a 9 movie Saga. If they make 3 films that don't really connect, then it'll be it's own new "Saga " or new "trilogy" of whatever you want to calll them. Even if those films are great, they still won't be part of the Saga if they don't connect in meaningful ways to what came before them.

For instance, the OT is telling Luke's story which culminates with Vader's redemption. So, it can exist on its own. The PT tells the story of Vader's downfall, and since his story is resolved when Luke redeems him, then that 6-film series is also a unified whole or a connected saga (plus there are other things that unite them like Obi almost killing Vader in #3, & Vader killing Obi in #4, or Palpatine coming to power and then being toppled from power.) Since these story arcs carry through all six films they are united. If the creators of the ST can come up with storylines that carry over from the prior 6 films, then that will bring those new films into the Saga. If they can't, then they won't be. For instance, if they are able to extend Luke's storyline from the OT so that it connects with the next 3 films then that will bring the OT and ST together. If they can somehow connect all the way back to Ep 1, then that would clearly make the whole 9 films one big Saga.

All that being said, I think they are really going to have a hard time with establishing those connections. It's not just that Luke (or maybe Leia) needs to appear in the next films. Their stories have to be furthered, and it really seems like ROTJ wrapped up everybody's storylines completely. Luke redeemed his father, Luke and Vader killed the Emperor, the prophecy of the Chosen One was fulfilled, the Empire was destroyed, Vader died, Luke became a Jedi, the identity of the "Other" was revealed, even Jabba's dead . Much of the rebuilding of the Jedi Order and of the Republic and the destroying of the remnants of the Empire was done in the EU, and they said the ST will be set after that stuff in the EU has already occurred, so I really don't see how they're going to do it.

In fact, to me, it seems like the novel "Darth Plagueis" is more of an extension of the original Saga than I imagine the ST will be. Palpatine plays an integral role in 1-6, and so the telling of his backstory from the period before the TPM connects with his role in the Saga that ends with his death in ep. 6. And there are other connections. For instance, it is suggested in the novel that the Force created the Chosen One in response to Palpatine and Plagueis b/c what they were doing knocked the force out of balance, and that Chosen One storyline arc reaches its end in 6 when Anakin kills Palpatine. Personally, I don't see a single unresolved storyline that can extend after ROTJ, let alone extending 30 yrs after the end of ROTJ. Hope they're more clever than I am. Or at least that they recognize that they can't connect them and that they shouldn't force what doesn't work and that they should just go in completely new direction with it.

 

Lukes main goal was to become a Jedi & confront Darth Vader. Accomplished

Leia'ss main goal was to help or lead the Rebel Alliance in removing the current Galantic leadership from power. Accomplished

Han & Chewys main goal was to pay their debt to Jabba, Jabba was killed so no more debt. Accomplished

Obi Wan & Yodas goal was to train Luke to be good enough to deal with Vader & Palpatine. Accomplished

Its safe to say all issues from Ep4 as well as Ep3 were officially dealt with & Concluded in Return of the Jedi.

Key word: Concluded.

 

3 of the movie have a to be continued feel at the end. Those movies are
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
& The Empire Strikes Back

Then you examing the other 3 films
The Phantom Manace could have stood on its own, withouth the need of the other 5, the only loose end is Palpatines character & the wonder of what he will do next.
A New Hope can also sorta stand on its own, Obi Wan explains a little of what happened before & the only loose end is that Darth Vader survived the Deathstar battle, so there is wonder what will happen to Darth Vader.
Finally you look at Return of the Jedi & there are no loose ends. We see the death of Jabba, Yoda, Boba Fett, Darth Vader & most importantly Palpatine. People keep saying the saga is not completed because Disney wants to cash n on the brand, but the actual films themselves say otherwise. Truth is the saga is complete, Disney can extend the world that is Star Wars, but to try to piggyback off the strength of 1-6 & say the saga continues is an idea I won't support.

 

I feel the same currently, but I respectfully disagree with the lack of support for the ST. The fact that Lucas himself has written their stories indicates to me that he feels the saga was incomplete. Lucas knows best what is good for Star Wars, so I will at least give them a chance.

Just my certain point of view on the matter.

 

I think George Lucas said a few years ago (and this was in a response, I think, to a question about the EU and canon-altering stuff like clone emperors) that as far as he's concerned the story of Star Wars is 'the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker'. It would certainly make sense, on that basis, to see the first six films as basically six parts of the one story, and to see the new films as true 'sequels' (i.e. a different story, which happens to be in the same universe).

 

Exactly what I said in the notes and quotes on the changing saga thread.

 

I've found that George Lucas quote:

Of course the first part of it needs a bit of a retcon

 

You're forgetting all the quotes from George over the years telling you that there was a ST and what the themes and plot are.

Not all issues. The rest of the galaxy needs freed. The Republic needs rebuilt. The Jedi Order needs rebuilt. Luke has to become a master and train new Jedi.......wait a minute, all of that is exaclty what Lucas said would be covered by the ST from 1980-1999.

Once all of that is concluded, the saga concludes.

 

If you put it that way, it will never end, it's an ongoing circle. But the whole "rebuilding" aspect is normally left out of the story (see Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings... the rebuilding part is not featured) because a story needs a negative force and the rebuilding part only fits a "and they carried on with their lifes" sort of epilogue, unless you introduce a NEW negative force (because the ultimate bad guy: the emperor-or Lord Voldemort- or Sauron) has been defeated.

In short, the rebuilding aspect is not interesting unless there is a new (NEW) conflict introduced. Luke's future as a master is not interesting unless something important happens (which has nothing to do with Anakin's journey, or Luke's quest to become a Jedi).

In 1980, the Saga was not meant to be a unified story: there were three different trilogies, with different sets of characters. When the prequels were created, the concept shifted so they would became the first half of a big story, introducing elements and conflicts that would be resolved in episode 6. Thus, the necessity of the ST dissappeared, and that's why Lucas decided that there was no ST. It's not true that it never existed, but it's true that it's no longer relevant to the story.

 

Star Wars isn't based on those stories or their outline. Star Wars is based on the Hero's Journey, and as said in a different thread, the Return portion of the Hero's Journey has yet to be accomplished.

You can introduce a new negative force/conflict and have it end in IX when the rebuilding concludes, avoiding your fear of an ongoing circle. Perhaps the rebuilding and Luke's future as a master revolves around the way the galaxy views force users post hostile takeover by the Sith. The point is it can be interesting and wrapped up.

This isn't true on any level. As of 1980 Lucas has stated that they were 1 big 9 episode story with overlapping characters. Ben, Anakin, Yoda, the Emperor, Bail, etc. were all set to be a part of the PT overlapping the OT with the OT characters and that the ST would continue with the OT characters. He always described the PT as the back story.

couple Lucas quotes:


"It's like a saga, the story of a group of people, a family" Prevue #42, September–October 1980
also in Prevue: Lucas also stated that he had "titles and ten-page story outlines for each of" the nine episodes
Prevue: It's a nine-part saga that has a beginning, a middle and an end
The trilogy would deal with the rebuilding of the Republic" Time, May 19, 1980.
"As the saga of the Skywalkers and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take at least nine films to tell – three trilogies." Foreward to Splinter of the Mind's Eye Special Edition

 

Star Wars, currently, is about a young Anakin Skywalker who is destined to bring balance to the force, and about Luke, who has to do what his father couldn't and redeem him. It's also about Palpatine, the mastermind behind everything. Plotwise, that's SW, those are the big storylines. And those are over. (And actually, the main hero would be Anakin, not Luke, whose story is clearly over).

Yes, we can introduce a new negative force/conflict, and that means that it's not a direct continuation of the story that begain in episode I.
"The way the galaxy views force users post hostile takeover by the Sith" is a theoretical (interesting) aspect, but it's not a story in itself.

Press-Telegram- May 18, 1983
Lucas " Now I've finished one book. And there may be two other books in my mind, but wether I start another book is not crucially important. The next book doesn't have anything to do with this book. Different sets, different actors. So it's not like I have to rush out and do another."

At this point, Lucas is not thinking about one single big story which needs to be completed, clearly. However, a couple of decades later, he talks about one big story about Anakin (a 6 part story), arguing that the story is over now once Anakin is dead.

"I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

in 1-6, the main HERO is Luke. The main character might be Anakin/Vader.

In 1-9 the main HERO and CHARACTER is Luke.

Your quote about the next book says that sets, i.e. locations, and ACTORS are different - not the characters. He always said the PT would follow Ben and Luke's father. Different loations and actors is why he didnt need to rush to do the next book, i.e. the PT. He definitely didn't have to rush for the ST becuse it followed a 60-year old Luke and he had 30 years to wait for Mark to age.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if GL intended the ST to be without a "negative force" but Disney adds one

 

Didn't know a main character and hero could be still unborn for 2,5 movies and still be considered the main character and hero. To say that Luke can be the main character of the whole saga when he is born at the end of the third episode doesn't seem right.

And if the ST was meant to follow and aged Mark, Carrie and Harrison, why did Lucas say that there were "different actors" in each trilogy?

 

Most likely an earlier vision of the ST (c1978-79), which would have a different central protagonist, although it's also possible he considered recasting the Big Three as an option if the actors weren't available.

Most of the very few details we have about the ST (rebuilding the Republic, philosophical and moral choices etc) were made after 1980, when it looks as if the vision had shifted to this 'reunion' version, following the aged cast of the OT. Virtually nothing is known about the earlier version, except that it would be set about 20 years after ROTJ. However, it's probably fair to think the general plot and themes would have been about the same as what was referred to later.

That's if there was an earlier version at all, of course. I don't think GL gave all that much thought to the ST back when ESB was being made, beyond having one.

 

This is in response to the bold sentences/question above. If you read the quote supplied regarding different actors, you see that Lucas is only referring to the PT and not the ST. He specifically said "the next book," not "both books," and considering he always said he would make the PT then the ST it is clear he is referring to the PT. Combine that with his quotes regarding OT characters in their 60's and Mark and company having the first crack at the roles it becomes even more clear.

As to how Luke can be the main character while being in 6 out of 9 movies I give you the fact that the 6 movies he is in are the last 6, where he is the main character of the OT and, according to all the old info from George, the main character of the ST. The PT is the backstory showing how events got to the point where Luke was needed.

To some extent the main characters are Anakin and Luke, each getting 6 movies, with 3 that overlap. The difference is that Luke is the main character in each movie he is in where Anakin isn't.

Anakin wasn't the main character in TPM, maybe in AotC, was in RotS, wasn't in ANH, wasn't in TESB, and wasn't in RotJ.
Luke was in ANH, was in TESB, was in RotJ, and (the only info George has given) will be in the ST.

See a pattern there?

 

To me, it doesn't matter that Luke will appear in the new films, even if he is "the hero," and I doubt he'll really have that role at age 60. I think for it really to be connected, story arcs have to carry over from VI (or earlier) to VII-IX. Luke's story arcs connect the OT, along with those of a few others (like Han's rescue/capture from V to VI, etc.). Anakin's, Obi-Wan's, Yoda' & Palpatine's story arcs carry all the way from the 1st film to the 6th.
James Bond appears in every James Bond film as its hero, but no one would call the James Bond movies a Saga. They are simply a series of sequels.

Unless the new creators can create story arcs that connnect the ST back to what preceded it, it won't be part of the original Saga in my view.

I think GL had a few ideas how to connect them, but he ultimately moved those ideas into ROTJ. Before ROTJ, Luke could have looked for "The Other," his twin sister, Nelith (or whatever her name was), and he was likely to finally kill Palpatine in a later film. But "The Other" and Palp's death was moved to ROTJ, leaving very little still open for development. Also, the rebuilding of the Jedi Order and the Republic took place in the EU.

It seems to me that it's very unlikely that the new creators will find a way to connect back to original 6, but maybe they can come up with something. Even if they can't, the ST might still be good films (though I imagine they'll lack the breadth, depth, and scope of the originals), and they will probably end up being a united trilogy themselves.

 

Eventhough Lucas said the ST would focus on Luke - "In the sequel Luke would be a sixty-year-old Jedi knight. Han Solo and Leia would be together…The sequel focuses mainly on Luke, and Lucas says Mark Hamill will have first crack at the part if he is old enough. the third deals with moral and philosophical problems. The sequel is about Jedi knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."

You mean like rebuilding the republic, training new Jedi, and passing on what you have learned? All things Lucas said the ST would be about. Things that connect it to the previous 6 movies.

Repeating myself from numerous threads, the condensing things down was something Kurtz said based on his understanding of how the story was BEFORE the script to ESB was finished. The same Kurtz that was fired by Lucas in 1980. The ST Lucas discussed from 1980 until 1999 had nothing to do with Kurtz's reported outline and focused on a 60-year old Luke.

The rebuilding of the Jedi and Republic happened in the EU, but as has been stated from Lucas, LFL, and Disney, the ST is a new story that is not taken from the current EU. That means that in the movie universe the rebuilding of the republic and Jedi hasn't happened like it did in the EU - and may not have happened as of Episode VII

 

I'm not really trying to get into a discussion about the history of the making of ROTJ and all of GL various ideas to go past VI. It just seems to me that everything wrapped up so neatly. I was just using the idea of Nelith being "the Other' as a story arc that could have continued on after ROTJ.
About the ST being about justice, confrontation, passing on what you've learned, those aren't story arcs. Those are themes, which may be interesting, but themes don't connect films the way story arcs do. For instance, Nolan's batman films have strong thematic connections, but there's little storywise that connects them. Nobody calls those 3 films a Saga. They are an origin story and 2 sequels and each is pretty separate from the other. Also, those films are connected thematically b/c they explore the same theme. Introducing new themes won't connect the ST to the old films. It may actually distance it.

About Luke being the hero of this new trilogy, I've gotten the impression from what I've been reading onlinethat he's going to have a smaller role, more like Obi-Wan's. I also get this impression b/c if any of the 3 principals decided not to return that GL would write their parts out. So, that implies to me that they won't have big roles in the ST, but I guess we'll know for sure when the films come out.
About EU, I thought that GL said that they were respecting EU and that what occurs in the ST will come after the main stuff that happens in the EU, like cloned Emperors, Thrawn trilogy, etc.

About rebuilding the Jedi and the Republic. Again this is just IMHO, but I don't think that's enough, especially 30 years after the Empire was defeated. It seems like the Order should have been re-established already (Luke what you've been doing all this time?). It could take time to restablish the Republic. The Republic could've split into factions and that could still be going on. But again, to me, that's not much of a story arc. A story arc involves an indivual progressing -- Anakin starting out a nice boy, being corrupted by an evil man, making a pact with the devil to save his wife, being placed in a position where he can't turn back, being redeemed by his son, fulfilling the prophecy and killing Palpatine. That's an arc of a storyline.

To me re-establishing a Republic isn't a storyline that really carries over. We never got a sense of what life was really like for the avg Joe under the Republic or under the Empire, so really the fall of the Republic was just sort of a background storyline. It was really just the Republic = good; Empire = bad. Now, I'm sure a lot of people would say, "Destroying the Empire isn't important? What are you talking about?" No, I'm not saying that. The original SW showed that the Empire was very evil and posed a great threat to characters we liked. They were blowing up planets. So, that's a big goal. Stop the guys who are blowing up planets! In the original trilogy, it was stop the guy from coming to power who is going to blow up planets.

However, we never got a sense that the Republic was all that great. In fact, it was corrupt and so bogged down by bureacracy that it couldn't accomplish anything. So, since we never got a sense of why the Republic was good in the earlier films, it's not really a strong goal to aim for in the ST. Plus, it's not a clear cut goal. How do you know when you've finally established a working democracy? Well, that's a slow process that involves tons of people with no clear moment of success. (When did the US become a great democracy? When the Constitution was ratified, even though the US had slavery? After the Civil war, when slavery was eliminated? etc..) So, for me, establishing the Republic is not a strong enough thing to tie the ST to the Saga. Of course, the creators might come up with something clever that makes establishing a democracy important or something else clever that ties the ST back to the original Saga, but I'm skeptical.

If you're really into the idea of re-establishing the Republic, then I think the films might really work for you, but for most people, I don't think the new ST will connect enough to feel like a part of the original Saga. And hey, what's wrong with starting a new Saga anyway?

 

We'll have to agree to disagree because:

Those themes can be woven into an arc that connects everything. The OT and PT have different themes yetare connected by an arc of Anakin helps to destroy the Jedi and Republic, which establishes the Empire. Luke fights the Empire created in the PT. Why wouldn't the reestablishment of the Jedi and Republic in the ST connect to what happened in the PT and OT? That is an arc that spans all 9 movies.

If by reading online you mean fan speculation than yes. We'll find outas we get closer but it's a better bet to stick with what Lucas has said about the ST. As far as writing out characters, Lucas told Mark the same thing during filming of TESB about what he would have done had Mark died in the car crash. He would've changed the story, doesn't imply anything about the story he has.

Nope, they only said that these were new stories from GL and not based on any EU.

It would take time to rebuild the Jedi. Luke would have to wait for new force-sensitives to be born and mature, presuming the Empire was hunting them down limiting the risk to their rule. You might only have a generation or two by the time VII roles around. For an arc, how about Luke being born and hidden for safety, is trained to be a Jedi in thetime of greatest need destroying the DS, saves his father and the galaxy and becomes a Jedi, restores the Republic and Jedi Order that his father destroyed, passing on his wisdom that he discovered along the way, and leaves the galaxy in a state of peace and harmony.

I think the PT and OT showed the stripping away of rights by the Empire. We saw explicity how the average joe is affected by the Empire when Vader rolls in and takes over Cloud City.

We do from Ben in ANH. The fact that the PT shows a flawed Republic makes seeing an "ideal" republic, as Ben described, the payoff.

If you're really into the idea that the Saga is about Anakin and can't be connected without him, then I think the films might really dissappoint you, but for most people (average movie going public) seeing the OT cast conclude their story will connect more to the OT and feel like the original Saga than the PT ever will.

I will see them as a 9 Episode Saga because everything George has done so far has followed his outline he gave us starting in 1980.

 

Just to clarify - Kurtz's statements seem to refer to yet another vision (the 12-episode series), in which there wasn't actually a Sequel 'Trilogy'. Luke's search for his sister would have followed almost immediately after ROTJ (perhaps with a one-off Republic-era story in between), not twenty years later. The majority of these twelve films would have been about Luke & co, and not separated into such distinct trilogies. It mightn't sound practical, but when this vision was being discussed, there was talk of making SW films on a yearly basis, plus there wouldn't have been three Republic-era films in between SWIII/ROTJ and the next adventure to follow Luke.

Once he adopted the 9-episode 'Trilogy of Trilogies' plan, however, there seems to be a brief period (c1978-1980) where GL envisioned three separate trilogies each focusing on a different era, and most likely with completely different central characters (Obi-Wan Kenobi, then Luke Skywalker, then someone else altogether, let's just say it's the original 'Other' Yoda refers to). All we really know about this ST is that it would have been set about 20 years after ROTJ.

However, this changed again following the difficult production of ESB, and it's after this that the quotes about an older Luke and OT cast begin to appear, so it's yet another vision altogether (30-40 years later, not 20), at least regarding the ST. It's most likely that the actual ST being developed now has its roots in this 'reunion' vision, although I'm inclined to think it'll be something else yet again, for the most part - official statements have suggested that if The Big Three weren't available, they could be written out, and I can't see them recasting.
It's also possible that whatever vague ideas GL once had for the unknown protagonist of the earlier ST c1978-1980 might also be used (there will be new main characters, after all), but I doubt much was ever developed, if anything.

The real problem in deciphering what was actually envisioned in terms of the big picture is that it kept changing, and virtually the only details available regarding development refer to the what was happening at the time on individual films. What little was ever revealed about further films and Saga structures tended to be later contradicted, largely to prevent it all looking like a gigantic, confusing mess.

 

I think we're not as far off as it may seem. It seems to me that in the end that the feeling of "connectedness" is ultimately an emotional reaction, though an emotional reaction based on facts. If there were absolutely no cross over between the old Saga and the ST, then only a crazy person would find the ST connected. On the other side of the coin, if people watched ROTJ after watching ANH & TESB and didn't feel that ROTJ connected, then I'd also say that person would be kind of crazy too b/c there are just so many links. (If ROTJ doesn't connect, what does?)

However, I think there is a middle ground where there could be some connections but not as many as those that connect ANH through ROTJ. At that point, I think it comes down to each individual's emotional reaction, a gut response response to whether those connections feel strong enough or not.

Like you said, there are some people who don't feel that the PT is part of the Saga, and I would argue that it pretty strongly connects. TPM introduces arcs that aren't completed until ANH or ROTJ -- the final confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader (ANH), the Chosen One prophecy (ROTJ), Anakin's redemption (ROTJ), Palpatine's rise and fall from power (ROTJ), etc, etc. Despite all these connections, some people don't think the PT connects. (Although, I imagine that some people just don't think the PT connects b/c they didn't like the 1st film or 2 films, didn't even make it to ROTS or didn't like it, or even though it was very well received, now lump ROTS with the rest of PT as part of the anti-GL hate b/c GL "raped my childhood" and all that insanity.)

For me, I think that the new films have to be very strongly connected narratively for me to feel that they are part of the Saga, and our two perception of what types of things connect films might differ. For instance, some people might think the ST trilogy will connect more b/c more of the principal actors will appear, whereas only Palpatine, Yoda, the droids are portrayed by the same "actors" in the PT. If the appearance of those OT characters played by those same actors gives people a sense of connection, then the ST will feel more part of the Saga to them. For me, I care a lot about narrative connections - story arcs that connect films - and I'm not sure that they will be able to find enough of these arcs, but maybe I'm wrong. It depends a lot on their creativity.

Also, I don't think I'll necessarily feel let down if the new ST doesn't feel connected. Connecting to the original Saga will give it a sense of relevancy, but they may be able to come up with new narrative threads that make me care about the characters and their struggles even if they don't connect to the Saga. So, the ST could be good either way.

 

Maybe I'm now confusing rumors with fact. So, has GL commented one way or another about whether they will respect the EU's lineages -- like Luke's and Leia's kids? Will those kids appear in the films or will GL create new families for Luke and Han/Leia?

I don't really care one way or another b/c I don't like that EU stuff that much, but if they don't respect EU continuity, a lot of fans will be pretty PO'ed. The EU forum and EU lit forum have over 2,000,000 posts put together. The CT, the PT, the ST, the Saga forums have fewer than 1,000,000 posts. Just by the numbers it's pretty clear the EU has some pretty big fans.

 

There's also hundreds of EU books, and only 6 films. (I do enjoy the EU, but only parts of it)

 

Not to my knowledge.