ST Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Playing devils advocate again...

The order still falls if any other surviving Jedi are doing the above quote (a great quote by Edmund Burke). All the dramatic suspence is still maintained if other Jedi survived but where doing nothing anymore to defeat the Empire. So if Luke died the order still would have too. Thus, from a certain pov, still make Luke the last of the Jedi and have yoda's dying words still carry theeir full meaning.

KotOR II explored the above quote, to some degree anyways, rather well. Though your character (the exile) clearly wasnt the last of the jedi by any means, the Jedi in hiding that you meet along the way had truly lost their way and thus werent really Jedi anymore. Well, to varrying degrees anyhow.

 

Those Jedi could always chose to come out of their holes and then there goes Lukes specialness. It simply isn't the same when you know there are a bunch of potential replacements hanging around.

 

Depends on how far they strayed from the Jedi path since going into hiding. Plus a good man who wont do anything against evil anymore can hardly be a replacement. Its a case of do or do not.

Also its just my opinion but it was Luke's choices that made him special not being the last which was pretty much given already. To me that line always more represented the end fight would be just Luke vs Vader + Emperor and if Luke survived he would be the one to start training others. Not that some Padawan/youngling from tcw couldnt have survived and coming seeking Luke to complete their training (secretly wishes for Gungi, he'd still be very young due to being a wookie) or Luke couldnt save a surviving Jedi who had gone dark jedi. I agree no Jedi Masters should have survived fully (sorry K'Kruhk, even though he did only popup decades later... still...), since they'd rob Luke of his destiny, but anyone else who would fit into the 'pass on what you have learned' is fair game at surviving as long as their story is well told and they dont overkill the survivors of Order 66.

 

Luke is special because of his actions and choices but also because he is the last Jedi. He simply has multiple special traits.

Plus it doesn't matter how much those Jedi strayed from their path. If even Darth Vader can get on the right path then so can these Jedi, maybe with a little ghostly encouragement.

 

Vader eats other Jedi for breakfeast though... Plus no other Jedi could turn him back to the light side, only Luke could have done that.

 

That is true but we're not only talking about defeating Vader and the Emperor (they could probably be killed in a military effort too) but also re-founding the Jedi order. Lukes destiny is very much about giving birth to a new order of Jedi.

 

As stated... Im fine with force users surviving as long as they need training from Luke. Or to be brought back into the light by him (as long as weaker Jedi Knights and not masters).

I'd prefer Luke to be the Last... and was mostly just playing devils advocate. Still this is a gameof semantics of could they have vs should they have.

 

I think you're being a little unfair in regards to PT Yoda: it may not have been executed as well as it could have, but I think it's very clear that Lucas intended to have the Jedi's demise be partially because of their own hubris.

 

Yoda not telling the truth to Luke is the same as lying.

Yoda never tells Luke the truth about Vader.

Yoda also tells Luke "If you leave now, if you choose the quick and easy path, yadda, yadda, yadda, you will become an agent of evil". Yoda was wrong about that as well. Yoda often stated his own point of view as the truth, even when he was shown to be wrong on multiple occasions.

Fortunatly Luke had the common sense to ignore Yoda and go to attempt to rescue his loved ones.

Then when Luke goes back to see Yoda, all of a sudden all the reasons Yoda gave him for not leaving in the first place, those aren't important to the troll anymore. Maybe because he is dying of course(yes let the excuses flow like the Force) but suddenly Luke requires no more training, all ready know him that which he needs.

Anyway the fact that Yoda supports Obi-Wan's lies are more than enough to make me not trust him and make me question everything he says.

 

Luke surely surpasses Yoda but imo that is not meant to draw into question everything Yoda taught him about the force and the Jedi.
When Yoda makes predictions it is also different than him stating facts. As the "future is always clouded", of course he wouldn't be able to 100% predict what would happen with his pupil. He himself basically said so...
And while I agree with Lukes decision to go to Bespin it was a very risky one.

Why he didn't tell Luke of his relationship with Vader I don't know. Obviously there were out of universe reasons. In universe he may have hoped Luke would manage to avoid Vader. So, pretty speculative topic.

 

"Not ready for the burden were you." as he puts it in RoTJ.

 

As someone who was lied to about family history - specifically who my father is - I can tell you that that is not a good reason to lie to a child.

 

While it may not be a good reason- that's the closest thing to a reason, that Yoda gives.

 

This. I love 'im and I think he IS wise, but the little green man isn't to be trusted, nor do I agree with everything he teaches.

Perhaps Yoda DID know other Jedi survived the purge, but kept it to himseslf so that Luke would be morelikely to believe in himself and the cause?

 

True enough.

 

Man, that would make him look like some evil manipulative genius who views Luke like some kind of toy soldier. One can over-interpret things too.

 

Oh, to be sure, Pev.
I think Master Yoda just didn't know...
What Masters and Knights officially survived the purge, anyway (other than Jennir and that crazy old lady that gives Leia her lightsaber on Nar Shadda)?

 

Lots survived the purge- but very few are shown after RoTJ. Vima Da-Boda (who gives Leia her lightsaber in Dark Empire) is one, Empatojayos Brand (from Dark Empire II) another, K'Kruhk (Whiphid who becomes head of the Jedi Council 100+ years on, in Star Wars: Legacy), and his friend T'ra Saa (treelike alien) are more- but most only feature before RoTJ.

 

I think the biggest problem with Jedi who survived the purge is that they have a huge record of failure, so it's not very believable that they would suddenly be reliable, after not being able to stop the Sith. Of course Luke would have been in the same boat if not thanks to ridiculous amounts of sheer luck.

The ancient Ent Jedi from Dark Empire II was pretty cool.

 

I just find it intellectually insulting to have shoved on us the idea that One Guy, assisted by a single legion, hunted down and exterminated one-by-one the equivalent of the entire population of a large town (10,000 knights and masters, plus about 2x that in padawans of various calibers), scattered across a 120,000 LY wide galaxy with a million inhabited worlds. And he accomplished this mission impossible in about the same time period as that between Kurt Cobain eating his shotgun, and today. Which really isn't all that long.

 

Just like it is insulting that the two droids stumbled across Luke in ANH? Just like it is insulting that Han Solo found Luke in midst of the Hoth wastes?

Star Wars functions more on destiny than "probability" or "realism". And if Luke is meant to be the last Jedi then he is.

 

"At this point Malak himself could drop out of the sky and I wouldn't bat an eyelash."

...oh, wait. This is the ST not KotOR

 

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda were sincerely protecting Luke from the ugly truth, with which Kenobi was partly responsible. Like parents do with their children. At some point they would have told let him.

Yes, there is a great suspension of disbelief in SW. I LOVE IT!

 

How was that fortunate? He didn't end up rescuing Han, and as it turned out the others didn't need to be rescued by him because they were rescued by Lando. And then everyone would have been captured all over again, this time including Luke, were it not for R2. And he got his hand cut off.

 

Even though I think Vader and the 501st are awesome, I definitely agree with this. I was assuming that a lot of the deaths were the Jedi being overwhelmed by their own clone legions. After the initial betrayal of the clone army, there weren't too many survivors. (Like Plo Koon shot by Jag, Aalya Secura shot by Bly) That opens up the additional plot hole of HOW could Jedi Masters that could take out entire droid armies single handedly be easily defeated in some cases by one single clone trooper?