ST Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

They were caught off-guard - and not just that, but uniquely off-guard, because the clones acted with no malice.

 

I believe the reason why so many Jedi fell during Order 66 was because up until the point their clone subordinates started shooting at them, the Jedi had no reason whatsoever to suspect treachery. Hence why the vast majority were taken completely by surprise. Also, the clones carried out their orders dispassionately (for the most part), so their Jedi generals and commanders didn't sense the threat until it was too late. Which is probably why the Order was so effective and succeeded in wiping out perhaps 99% of the Jedi right off the bat.

Edit: Ninja'd!

 

I don't think Luke was the Last jedi, just the only one in Kenobi and Yoda's eyes capable of defeating Vader and Lord Sidious. Luke and Leia where the only beings capable of turning Vader back to the light side of the force or at least reaching his good natured side which Luke was obviously able too. I feel Kenobi and Yoda both felt that if Luke Would know of his father that he wouldn't confront him. Not only did Luke confront his father but he used the information to reach him.

 

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Agreed, The only Jedi in tune enough to sense the change that had just occured was Yoda! Kenobi survived out of pure luck everyone else was just taken by surprise by the attack. There were no emotions or thought behind the attack. The clones acted without even thinking about it. There was nothing to sense. Well except for Yoda. He obviously sense something had transpired in them.

 

Everything worked out in the end because Luke had his priorities straight. He knew what was important and what wasn't.

We can all play this what if type discussion. What if Vader hadn't been waiting for Luke? What if Vader had been escorting the prisoners to the Star Destroyer? Could Lando have even saved them then?

In the end everyone got saved, including Han Solo from Jabba. If Luke had been the proper unattached Jedi that Yoda was looking for on Dagobah we don't know what would have happened.

 

No, Yoda and Obi-Wan banked on Luke killing his father as is made absolutely obvious through the dialogue.

 

I don't agree. Even Yoda back in The Empire Strike Back. Pointed out Luke's failure in the cave due to him killing his father and would then be forced to take his place, symbolized by Luke's face in Vader's Helmet. Yoda and Obi-Wan always mentioned that Luke needed to confront Vader, I don't recall them saying that he needed to kill Vader!

 

Obi-Wan blatantly said he would need to "destroy Vader". And Vader is apparently "more machine than man, twisted and evil". He even goes on to say that if Luke doesn't kill Vader the Emperor has already won.

Yoda says "Once you go down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." - meaning Vader... While he never directly tells Luke to kill Vader, the message is clear. Never is it implied that Yoda wants him to try to turn Vader.

It was Lukes own idea to turn his father, not that of his masters.

The failure in the cave stemmed from using violence when it was completely unnecessary. There was nothing in the cave that could hurt Luke, only what "he brought with him".

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan were both full of the idea that Luke's confronting / killing Darth Vader was the only hope for the victory of the AtRtR and the destruction of evil.

In fact, this turned out to be patently false. Even if Luke had walked into Palpatine's throne room and turned to the dark side at once, forming a sith Triumvirate, it would have lasted all of about ten minutes before the Alliance managed to blow up the DS anyway, killing them. Due to the actions of Han, Chewbacca, R2D2 and the Ewoks, Palpatine's plan and trap had already failed before the whole Luke-Vader battle, Force-lightinging thing happened. Even as Palps delighted in frying Luke, Wedge and Lando were already hurtling through the guts of the DS2 and destroying it.

Ultimately, Luke's destiny as a Jedi, and whether he defeated Vader or lost to him, whether he turned to the Dark Side or didn't, were irrelevant. The DS2 was getting blown up, and Palpatine and Vader were dying.

 

In Heir to the Empire, Thrawn seems to think that the abilities of the fleet (and its fighters) were being boosted by the Emperor- so when he died, morale collapsed and everybody started fumbling. Hence the "TIE-fighter incompetence" that results in Wedge & Lando reaching the DS2's core. As well as the loss of various Star Destroyers in "engagements they should have had no trouble with".

 

Plus, by going to Bespin, Luke was able to find out that Vader was his father and that there was still good in him, which eventually led to Anakin Skywalker's redemption and the fall of the empire. If Luke wouldn't have gone to Bespin, Leia and Lando wouldn't have gotten away, and if Luke didn't go, Artoo wouldn't have gone either, so Artoo wouldn't have been there to save the day.

 

Well, Luke was able to escape from the DS in a shuttle before it finally blew up... it was burning, alarms blaring, imperial troops everywhere panicking, etc. long enough for him to know he needed to get out of there as soon as possible. And he did that even after dragging Vader's body to the ship first. So if things had gone differently, Vader and Palpatine would surely have been able to get to a shuttle to escape before it exploded too.

 

Everything worked out in the end because Vader didn't want to kill him and the Falcon was conveniently able to save his butt before he fell off Cloud City. And because of R2. He was told he was not ready to face Vader, and that turned out to be accurate.

He was bound to confront Vader eventually either way, and if they had met somewhere else, it stands to reason that Vader would likely have been just as interested in telling him the information.

 

I agree with this.

 

No he didn't.

And who presided over Luke's experience in the cave, having set it up in the first place? Who is quoted there?

 

we'll get answers soon, watch this interview with Kathleen Kennedy
http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-...uggests-lucasfilm-president-kathleen-kennedy/

 

Luke - 'I can't do it. I can't kill my own father"

Obi - "Then the Empire has already won"

I might not be remembering it perfectly but that was pretty much the message Obi-Wan was offering. I'd like to give Yoda the benefit of the doubt and think that he really believed that confronting, and not killing, Vader was the answer. Part of me says this is naive though.

Logically though Yoda may have realized that Luke had no chance to defeat both Sith by himself so maybe he was banking on Luke saving Anakin.

 

I think its "Then the Emperor has already won".

 

Uh, not to burst your bubble but Yoda also stated he had a dilemma of staying alive in that same thought process in the novelization of RotS, thus still also implying the Emperor could have beaten him even if he didnt. Yoda's insight was more on the failings of the order to adapt to the Rule of Two Sith vs the Sith armies of old which fighting a war against would lead them to in fighting as well, thus weakening them. However that didnt apply anymore and he realized this (apperently) too late.

Imho it was an excuse of Yoda's to save face and flee, which was actually caused by RotJ. Due to the fact the Emperor was always destined to be a far grander opponent but when Lucas abrubtly ended the story at RotJ he just made the Emperor have lightning powers but problem was Yoda was always seemingly stronger than that (Zahn even had Luke think as much in Hand of Thrawn when Mara bugged him about what is a Jedi a warrior or sage, and Luke replied Sage. Paraphrashed of course.). However some of Yoda's dialog in the OT is still geared at this grander enemy instead of 3 more movies worth of build up, which Vader randomly kills via tossing him down the reactor just to end the series. So RotS tried fix this and the novelization tried to take this a step further, but problem is Yoda was always meant to have been weaker but now not as much, so the solution of Yoda just discovering some insight was used to cover this up.

 

I don't know why everybody thinks Yoda is the most powerful Jedi evah. For the story to work he should be beneath Vader, Palpatine and Luke, honestly.

You are right that he never said "destroy". I looked it up in the wrong script.

However:

Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
Obi-Wan: "Then the emperor has already won."

Ben: "I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be
done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil."

Yoda: "Once you go down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

The meaning is pretty clear. You can claim that Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to turn his father, but there is no evidence for that whatsoever, which makes it a very, very weak claim. On the other hand, it is heavily implied that they want Vader and the Emperor destroyed.

And if he survived? What then?

 

He gets put on trial by the NR for Alderaan, the Jedi purge, and the many other war crimes he committed. He ultimately ends up "walking the mile."