PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

Yeah, the Order just started falling apart when the council decided Anakin was mature enough to go with Padme to Naboo to "protect" her and "keep her safe" from impending doom.

 

The Jedi spend all of AOTC demonstrating their lack of patience and inability to think. They are lead around by the nose and still just blindly and foolishly rush from point to point, like 5 year olds playing soccer. If you've ever watched that, every player on the field chases the ball like a swarm of bees -- there is no strategic thinking and no teamwork. Ladies and gentlemen, your Jedi order!

 

That's why you THINK and arrest him in public, where to fight back he'd have to reveal his true identity to the galaxy and there would be public record of the confrontation. Hey, look, the chancellor howls like a demon, has a red light saber, kills Jedi, and shoots lightning and has a puffy monster face!

The Jedi refused to even step into the political arena to fight when that was 75% of his strategy.

They should have thought how to kill Chancellor Palpatine -- the public face of Darth Sidious. He operated by hiding in he shadows. Take that away from him.

 

Still doesn't merit being made the scapegoat for the thousand years of dogma and tradition that governed the Order until then.

 

Very carefully!

 

Vader was defending Luke. Windu was executing someone who hadn't been tried. Windu could be considered a tragic figure in that he ended up forgetting the very beliefs he was fighting to preserve.

 

When did Vader "prosecute" Darth Sidious?

If anything, Vader put LESS thought into killing Palpatine than Mace Windu did. Mace talked to Yoda in the Novel/ Anakin on film and then brought some friends to arrest the Chancellor. Mace didn't decide to execute him until after Palpatine tried to kill him with lightning. And make no bones, Mace wasn't getting the Luke treatment... he was served full doses of the electric stuff.

lol Arawn_Fenn
Exactly.

 

Palpatine is the one who knows how to manipulate public opinion. There;s a very good chance that trying to arrest him in pubic would've backfired.

 

That sounds naughty.

 

Well not bothering to fight on that front at all sure worked out well, didn't it.

 

I'm gonna have to say that Anakin showing up and taking Palpatine's side is not something that Mace Windu could've anticipated.

 

I agree. I mean one of the main problems that Jedi and Sith have is sensing betrayal. Dooku never sensed Palpatines', Mace didn't sense Anakins' and Sidious never sensed Vaders'. Also Plaguies never sensed Sidious's betrayal (But that's just going from the way Palpatine described it to Anakin). I think it perfectly fits with life in general to be fair.

 

I agree, yet Mace was so focused on killing Palpatine that he didn't see it coming. He should have thought that with Anakin's personality and attitude that he would have came anyway.

 

Interesting point about bringing Anakin along for the confrontation with Palpatine. It would have been interesting to see how that turned out.

 

I'm not sure if Mace really expected that arresting Palpatine would be that easy. He sounded skeptical when Anakin mentioned the Sith Lord, so perhaps there was still some doubt within his mind if Palpatine was really a Sith? But after Palpy killed off the other three, I'm pretty sure Mace just wanted to deal with the threat in order to prevent Palpy from killing him.

 

In hardcore moralistic terms, Mace Windu destroyed the Jedi through faithlessness. He lost his faith in Anakin and the prophecy, he lost his faith in the Republic, he lost his faith in the Jedi Code. Next to him, Palpatine is a very devout man. In an interview with Bill Moyers to publicize the theatrical release of TPM, Lucas said that faith is the glue that holds society together. And the first entry-point into Star Wars -- the movie that now comes as as relief after the oppressive apocalyptics of ROTS -- is subtitled "A New Hope". In Episode I, Qui-Gon has faith in Anakin where the Jedi do not. He refuses to yield to Obi-Wan's digs at his expense concerning Anakin and Jar Jar. Yoda even gets another shot at things because, from one POV, he keeps the faith. Faith in some deeper truth that others refuse to see or so much as contemplate -- whether it be God, a person, an idea, or the possibility of things being better than they presently are -- is, I suppose, at the core of us as creatures with some awareness of the world and our presence within it. Abject faith (fundamentalism) in anything is inherently dangerous. But total loss of faith may be even worse. It started with the clones and only got worse from there. Mace signed his own death warrant and condemned billions to servitude and death under the Empire when the final vestiges of his faith deserted him.

 

"If what you are telling me is true, you will have gained my trust."

It doesn't seem like Windu had much faith in Anakin from the beginning. However, he seems to display such faith at the crucial moment. By ratting out Palpatine, Anakin in large measure gains Mace's trust. Even when Anakin disobeys him and shows up at the Chancellor's office, Mace waves him back in a gesture that reveals a sense of assurance that they're on the same side. And Mace is unprepared for Anakin's strike when it occurs. Ironically, it could be said that Mace invested faith in Anakin at the worst possible moment, and was killed as a result.

 

Agreed but he handled it completely wrong. He used his inner monologue in your quote. To quote Sterling Archer, "phrasing"!

It's OK for him to think what he said, but by saying it out loud he has just put Anakin on the defensive and has bruised his ego. Because that phrase implies many things -- you haven't earned my trust up to this point, and only if what you said is true will I trust you, instead of trusting you now. And he pours salt in the wound by making him sit on the sidelines, alone in the Jedi Council chambers. Anakin must be wondering why he is still being held in virtual quarantine.

What Mace just told Anakin is virtually "I hate you, kid". Then, Mace threatens to break the Jedi code and kill Palpatine (even though Anakin did the same by killing Dooku and the same words, "he's too dangerous to be left alive", were used). I'm sure at this point Anakin rates Mace an 11 on the a-hole scale.

 

And you would have also increased the number of potential casualties. What if the Jedi had confronted Palpatine in public and Palpatine had fought back and killed 10, 100, 1000 people? Would that be justified? What if the Jedi had succeeded when Mace & Co. confronted Palpatine in his office? Would you still question their plan of action?

Nothing the Jedi do will work out. No matter what they do, they will lose. Saying that since what they did, didn't work, and therefore they were stupid for trying it and so if they had just done X,Y,Z they would have been better off is false. Even if they had done exactly as you advocate, they would lose.

 

If they confront Palpatine in public and he kills a million people, his reign is over and he is exposed. His mask as chancellor is ripped off. Palpatine relied on his public persona to execute his plot. It was his greatest strength. Without it he is virtually destroyed.

 

So powerful it was, that the name "Darth Sidious" was no longer needed.

 

SweetZombieJesus is correct. Palpatine/Sidious relied on his public face which was that of an upstanding man who loved the Republic. If he showed his true colors in public then it would al be for nothing. It is implied that Palpatine didn't drop the benevolent over night. He waited for some time. No doubt slowly revealing his true nature until he wasn't hiding anything except for his Sith Identity.

 

Mace was one of the most powerful Jedi, and brought three others of the most powerful Jedi. Yes, he underestimated Sidious, but he had never encountered a Sith, and a Jedi apprentice had killed Maul. Pretty much anyone in his position would have expected four of the most powerful Jedi to be able to take on a single Sith lord. However, he still would have been wise to play it safe and bring more than four. But perhaps it would have looked suspicious to the general public if a whole army of Jedi arrested Sidious.

As for bringing Anakin, it's obvious why he didn't, because Anakin had a close relationship with Sidious. It just would have made sense for Mace to bring more other Jedi. Perhaps Obi-Wan and Yoda. However, he also wanted to act as quickly as possible and maybe didn't think he had time to get together a bigger group.

 

This is what I mean about them not thinking. Even if they had killed Sidious, think about what that act LOOKS LIKE to outside observers. Total political fail. The Jedi are acting on intellgience (nevermind that it was spoon fed to them by the bad guy himself and once again they don't stop to think why, and why now) and have good intentions but they are giving Sidious exactly what he wants, the public perception which is turned into political momentum.

Gather evidence and present it to the public, then act. Record the confrontation. Do it in public. Show the security holograms of Vader's murders to the Senate which is in session at the time.

 

You missed my point. Innocents would die (or at least be put in great danger). That is something the Jedi would want to avoid.

You also failed to answer my other question. If Mace and Co had succeeded, would you still call their actions stupid? Or are you only calling them stupid because they failed?

I'm curious how the Jedi are supposed to show the hologram's of Vader's murders to the Senate if, when at the time Mace & Co go to arrest Palpatine A) Anakin hadn't turned into Vader and B) Vader had yet to commit those murders?

The act of arresting, or killing, Palpatine would indeed look bad to the public. No argument there. However, what you're wanting them to do is look and hopefully find enough evidence that would convince the general public that Palpatine is a Sith Lord (something that most people don't truly understand), all while continuing to allow the same Sith Lord to remain in command of the Republic, Clone Army, and Navy. All so the general public has a good opinion of them. And with the hope that once they collect and present the evidence that the general public will accept it and sanction their removal of Palpatine. Yeah, that's clearly the better option. What if they never find enough evidence to convince the general public? Do they just allow Palpatine to remain in office forever? Do they just give up on the Republic that they've sworn to protect for the last 10,000 years?