JCC God Exists.

Well, I've been here for 9 years. I may leave eventually, but it won't be within the next few weeks, I can promise you that.

Now, I have about one million things to respond to (aka at least 7) and I'm not going to stay up until 2 or 3 am again tonight because I have appointments to keep tomorrow. This is partially my own fault, as I have engaged in, perhaps, to many lines of thought, here, though I'm going to go in for another one to ask a question of the group:

Fear of death, yes. Fear of what comes after death, also yes, though those aren't enough, imo, to make one believe. It plays a part, though. Hope is another reason. If this life is all there is, minus the grace and forgiveness and love that comes from God, then this is a sad and terrible world, but it's all for naught, anyway. Which is where I find my question(s), of atheists:

If there is no God, what is the meaning of life? Since, eventually, because of entropy, the universe will completely die out, why does anything matter?And why not do anything to get what you want now? In light of the end of existence, morality seems like a foolish game, blocking the way for pleasure, which seems like the only thing that could really matter in this scenario.

I genuinely would like to know what you believe in this area.

Thank you.

You're looking at the wrong list. This is more a list of "how do I know they were telling the truth?" than a list of how do I know this is historically reliable.

That said, you're exactly wrong. Everything on this list is a verifiable fact. Read the books. All of these things are true about what is included in the Bible and their lives.

The idea of this list is to show that it's not something a group of people could get together and make up. It doesn't happen this way. And really the clincher is 10. So, these guys were all part of this giant conspiracy, but they wouldn't tell the truth when tortured and killed? It's one thing with someone who doesn't know what they believe is wrong to die for it... like I could see you thinking I have just been convinced that this stuff is true, but I am not actually aware that it isn't... but these guys made it up, you would say. They made it up so that they could live the rest of their lives being persecuted, having little, and being tortured, imprisoned, and killed for it. They left the ideas of them being gifted through their own blood salvation, to leaving it open to anyone.. why?

divergent details are not conflicting details.

But honestly, if all that stuff you wrote someone actually said to me, and then they were tortured and killed and wouldn't take back his story... I would be inclined to think there very well might be a dragon in his garage. Plus, Sam says it too? He invited me to go to his garage and look, before he died? I mean, I would go to his garage and look, at least. That would be pretty compelling.

You totally missed the point. That was not an argument for God; that was an explanation of why I posted a bunch of lists. It was to show that the argument is vast and extensive, and that it does not rest on a single point. Also because I was asked to show evidence, so I sort of wanted to know what area we would like to focus on. Many or all of these claims are verifiable.

I'm sure I can dig up evidence that at least one of the apostles was tortured or killed for his beliefs. Would you like me to find that?

God is an infinite being. He always was and is and always will be. The universe is finite. It has a beginning and it will have an end.

I'll respond to this better tomorrow, but this will suffice, for now:

There are 27 million slaves in the world. That's more than ever. Most of them are sex slaves. Many of them are in western civilizations. There are laws against this in many of the countries it takes place in.

How civilized is the world?

Goodnight, yall. I'll be back for more tomorrow.

 

i think you mean 27 million slavs. but yes, that is far too many for a world that calls itself civilized

 

I voted dunno. I suspect if there were a supreme being capable of creating everything, it would be almost impossible to know or even understand.

There might be intelligent life out in the universe that we would think of as "god-like" if they were level 2 or 3 galactic civilizations, but that still wouldn't make them capable of creating everything.

And even if it were all true and God did create the universe and everything, there's a huge jump going from that to........an afterlife where our "souls" remain intact and an essence of our being. Those are almost two different levels of possibility.

I probably believe we were created by ancient aliens more than a God of the OT.

 

You didn't answer my question... where did God come from? How did he/she/it get here? There was a point when he/she/it appeared... where did it come from?

Are you telling me that there was this thing floating around in a sea of absolute nothingness, and it decided to create a vast and intricate universe out of nothing? I mean, it sat down and came up with every single element and particle? It created the stars? Why, then? What made god decide to create iron? At one point, he sat down and thought to himself, "We need maggots... can't forget to create maggots"?

 

>It has a beginning and it will have an end.

Oh thank heavens you're at least not a steady stater.

 

It's all very subjective and personal. You have the free will to find your own meaning in your life. Why you would not take advantage of that important journey, opting to instead assign such an arbitrary and generic explanation for it all, I have no idea. Doesn't it sound a lot more fulfilling to place your belief in yourself and find your own meaning for the life you live? I mean, sure, it's the harder path, and mistakes will be made, but in the end it sounds a lot more meaningful and fulfilling, to me.

Don't Doctor Who this thread, butthole.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for the existence of a god. Not Thor, not Allah, not Zeus, not Xenu, not Vishnu, not Ra, and not Yahweh. They are all fictional beings invented by primitive societies that were trying to figure out the nature of the world.

"To believe in a thing without evidence is the greatest sin against the human mind."

And you can't use the Bible as evidence for the existence of your god, because the Bible has been repeatedly shown to be fallible, inconsistent and/or false in many instances. I will gladly provide you a list of such contradictions if you feel you really need it, but I would think that, as a Christian, you have read the book several times and you should be aware of them.

Oh wait, I'm forgetting, most Christians don't actually read their Bible. They just memorize a few key phrases and ignore the rest.

 

I had a look through the thread and didn't see anything but SORRY if this has been pointed out...

but am I the only one freaking out because the percentages in the poll add up to 123.7%?



yes 29 vote(s)38.2%
no 24 vote(s)31.6%
nnnnnNNNNOOOOOOOOO!!!! 15 vote(s) 19.7%
dunno 26 vote(s)34.2%
no curr 0 vote(s)0.0%

THAT IS 123.7%! How does that EVEN WORK????

 

Jesus is beyond the confines of mathematical law.

 

People selected every answer. Multiple answers were allowed.

 

Okay, but He should know this just led to an afternoon office freak-out....

But but but ... it still hurts my brain.

 

That's how I voted.

 

Voting for every answer is the only correct answer.

 

Dude stopped trolling me and getting banned. Wise career move.

 

God did it

 

I don't think there is a "meaning of life". The phrase is dumb and too broad. Whose life? Ants? Well, you tell me. What meaning did God imbue the lives of ants with?

No, must be humans, huh. Ants don't matter, do they. Even though there are more ants than humans. Even though the level of cooperation between ants surpasses that amongst humans. There's no Ant Bible. Ants aren't the chosen people! Humans are.

How childishly selfish.

The meaning of life. What a petty notion. The fact that you're asking about it implies that you can't think outside of your God box. Because who says that life and meaning are concepts that should be linked? You're not asking about the acidity of life. It makes no sense. You're not asking about the strength of life. So why the meaning? Why should life have meaning?

I'll leave the morality bit because that's too obvious to waste my time on.

Free will, though, is a concept that's just as hazy and unsubstantiated as 'the meaning of life'.

 

As long as I'm not hurting someone else, it's whatever the **** I want it to be.

That is, unless they deserve it.

 

I suppose that's where subjective and personal come in.

I used an overused (and cliche) term, free will, to describe my own personal way of living my life. I enjoy finding the meaning in my life... things, people, places, events, etc, that I observe. As much of a pain in the ass it is, at times, I find meaning in the struggles I have to deal with daily in order to create and live a life with meaning. Perhaps that makes me somewhat narcissistic... I'm actually okay with that.

I'm just saying there is no universal "meaning of life"... it's subjective.

 

Yes. Proof? Yoga pants.

 

Why does there have to be a god in order for life to have meaning? I would think that since there is no god and no afterlife, that makes this life much more special. We have to make the most of our limited time, because this is the only chance we get. And you didn't quite state it in so many words, but are you asking "If there is no god, then why not murder/steal/rape all you want?" Well, the answer is, I do murder, steal and rape all I want. And that number is zero. If you need a god to prevent you from doing those sorts of things, then I am very scared for you and those around you.

It seems to me that Christians view this life as a warmup for their eventual admission into heaven; they don't treasure anything that occurs in this life, nor do they worry about the troubles they go through, since they "know" that things will turn out fine for them in the end. Feel free to correct me if my presumption is incorrect.

 

To be fair to him, Vivec he actually did something a bit different. First, while he cited scientific information, he said that he was making a theological argument, not a scientific one. So while your original point is well taken, this isn't meaningfully different from how science is usually employed in the service of philosophy or metaphysics. The very nature of these disciplines extrapolates findings radically beyond what they actually demonstrate, and Christianity is hardly unique in this regard. For instance, how many theories seem to overlook the fact that, as it's very name describes, quantum mechanics only describes things at the "quantum" level, and that for most all macro-phenomenon the classical model applies? Citing a theologian to make a theological argument was, in that sense, appropriate.

Second, he never actually made an appeal to authority. He mentioned the names of people he considered prominent thinkers who agree with him, true. But his initial instances of doing so were merely to cite his sources. He opened with sentences like "this argument is coming at you from" or "as explained in [book x]." When you challenged him to further discussion, he then responded that while he didn't have much personal scientific expertise, he would be willing to supplement his knowledge deficits by seeking out expert resources. Neither of those is an argument that you should believe his argument simply because someone else does. Rather, it's a sort of transparency about the source of his arguments.

 

So, a circular argument, then.