CT Did Lucas know Darth was Luke's father in ANH?

He shouldn't be immune from criticism just because he created Star Wars. Blind adulation is just as bad as blind hate.

 

I'm not saying he's not allowed to be critized but some of the criticism is ridiculous. I understand the hate for tinkering with the movies every year, that gets on my nerves and don't get me started on Jar Jar..... or the way Anakin was casted in the prequels.

 

I'm going to say (based on what I have heard through the years) that (at most) Lucas had been entertaining the possibility of Vader as Luke's father at the time ANH was filmed but hadn't decided on it. I certainly don't think it was certain at that point and may not have been decided on until later on.

 

So to recap....the plot points she was likely mandated to include in her draft (ice plant, monster, Luke's training) coming out of these oft mentioned story conferences were "okay", while the material she likely come up with on her own to fill in the gaps all wound up in the trash.

Yes, no, maybe so?

 

If all the plot points were mandated then that includes the ghost of Father Skywalker. Which goes to show that Lucas did NOT have Vader as Luke'äs father from the get go.

Also how do you know which plot points were mandated and which they worked out together in the story conferences?
Lucas could just have had the Ice planet and she added the monsters, or Lucas had both in mind or neither.
Lucas could just have said "Han has to leave on his own" and not given much of a reason. Or Lucas had the step father to Han in mind or it was something they talked about and came up with together. You don't know.
What we do know is that she and Lucas had several story conferences and she wrote the first draft of the script which then was edited by either her or Lucas or both.

The script is a work in progress, some of it is good and some is in need of polish.

Much of the basic story was kept in subsequent drafts, ice planet, imperial attack, asteroid chase, Luke training, Han and Leia romance, going to a friend of Han for repairs, a fight between Luke and Vader and Luke looses.
The ghost of Father Skywalker was removed as soon as Vader became Luke's father. Neelith Skywalker, became an unnamed sister to just "another" that Luke wasn't told about.
Han is leaving due to his debt to Jabba and not because he is sent on a mission for the rebels.
That is a bit odd if you think about it. Han is more worried about Jabba than about the empire? He says that if he doesn't pay back Jabba he is a dead man. Yeah and what do you think is going to happen if the empire catches you? Just let you go with a stern warning? Han is a marked man wheter he pays off Jabba or not. If the empire catches him, he is going to be shot for treason.
Luke's fight with vader is different, at first Luke was using the dark side of the Force even if he didn't fully know it. And Vader let him as he knew Luke would loose if he kept that up. So it had some intersting bits about the nature of the Force and that you can't use the dark side against an opponent like Vader because then you will always loose and you might loose yourself as well.

You still haven't given any specific examples of what is bad in the script or why Brackett is a "Hack".

Bye for now.
Balckboard Monitor

 

My statement that Brackett was an old washed-up hack on her death bed was a jestful counterpoint to the persons who regard her with divine reverence. This is obviously because her ESB draft is the linchpin to one side of this debate.

However if you step back and look at things: on the spectrum from divine infallibility and washed-up hack; at the time she wrote ESB she was probably closer to hack.

 

Classic false-dilemma: Brackett either had 'divine infallibility' or was a 'hack'. It's this type of thinking that permeates the other side of the debate (difference being, the other side applies it to Lucas). And they figure the only way to 'prove' that Lucas is not a 'hack', was to show that big plot-points like Vader being the father, weren't thought up so 'late' in the game, i.e. "there's no WAY he thought this-up only for ESB's second draft!!!" And, curiously enough, our side of the debate does NOT think that Lucas not knowing that Vader was Luke's father when ANH/SW makes him a 'hack'.

Ideas and concepts in SW evolved. There was a progression of ideas in the writing process of the first film that's visible when one looks at the treatments/outlines/drafts of the script for that film. The father Vader storyline is no different. It's as zombie said years earlier: no one has issues with Luke's character not having 'always' been a farmer in the story (only since the second draft), nor the character of Ben Kenobi only existing since the third draft. But there's a resistance to the idea of father Vader only existing since the second draft of ESB written by Lucas. And it IS about the so-called 'circumstantial evidence', because everything points to Lucas not having this concept until the time of the second draft. And there's no evidence or reason to think that he knew of it but kept it 'secret' from Brackett - only to later NOT keep it secret from Kasdan and Kirshner.

 

"Divine reverence"? Who used that type of language? Sounds like a straw man.
There is plenty of middle ground between the two.

What has been said was that she was a professional script writer and a well regarded one at that. So Lucas hired her for a reason, to write the script. What I and others have objected to is the logic that some argue that Lucas hired her to write a script he NEVER had any intention of ever using. That he threw away his own time and money on story meetings and a script that he knew was waste of time. And all this, according to you, because that he felt sorry for Brackett.
Sorry, this is trying to argue a conspiracy theory.

The far more likely scenario is that Lucas hired her to write a script he ACTUALLY had plans to use. That he worked with her on plot points he had plans to really use. Why he hired her was probably because she was a well regarded writer and had written some quality scripts.
Lucas hiring a writer that he thought was useless and couldn't do the job makes him into a bit of an idiot and I give him more credit than that.
Likewise it is pretty idiotic to waste your own time and money by lying to your script writer so that the script she is writing is useless.
And no secrecy is not a valid excuse because Kadan was told as soon as he came onboard, plus if you can't trust your script writer with the plot then the script writer can't do his or her job. Also there are secrecy clauses in Hollywood to stop people from blabbing.

The main issue in this thread is whether or not Lucas had Vader as Luke's father from the word go. Most of the available evidence, like ANH scripts, the first draft of ESB along with Lucas own words from back then suggest that he DIDN'T have Vader as Luke's father from the start.
This was instead something he came up with when ESB was being written.
The first draft of ESB is a crucial piece of evidence here as it clearly has Vader NOT being Luke's father and also has Luke's father appearing in ghost form. Some, including yourself, have been trying to dismiss this script by arguing things like "Lucas lied to Brackett" or "The ghost was all Brackett's idea and Lucas had no input on it." and most recently, your attempt to dismiss Brackett as "a washed up, old Hack." in what appears to be an attempt to make her script not count and her contribution worthless. If you don't think she was a hack then lets drop the discussion about her qualities as a writer and get back to the facts.

Saying "Lucas did not have all of SW mapped out in every detail from 1975" isn't an insult or slam against the man. Stories grow and evolve during writing, something Lucas has said himself. So the idea that he didn't have Vader as the father right from the start and only came up with the idea for the second film is likewise not intended as criticism or that he is a "hack". Instead it shows great skill, courage and imagination to pull such a risky and daring move.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The above is a good, balanced summary of the situation IMHO.

 

Since you quoted it in my reply I’m surprised you didn’t notice where I typed “on the spectrum from”, but anyway, we digress.

And let’s not bring up zombie or I might be forced to pull out the dirty “H” word. The linchpin of his manifesto was that Laurent Bouzereau was forced by Lucas Stormtroopers to outright lie in the Star Wars Annotated Screenplays or that a LucasBooks editor inserted passages into the book before publishing it.

I asked zombie if attempted to contact Mr. Bouzereau to get his comment on such a bold statement. Zombie’s response was eerie silence.

Everything points to no Father Vader except the sole official source of Star Wars knowledge, Lucas himself. We’ve written him off as a liar.

Have we caught him in any other lies? If so, about what?
Is he lying to protect his legacy?
Is ego?

I'm fully open to the possibility that Lucas plucked every idea right out of his fat ass right before the camera’s started rolling.

Lucas seems like a decent, genuine guy. I’m inclined to take his word for it, until I seem some more substantial evidence to the contrary. An evil LucasBooks editor and a first draft of ESB by Leigh Brackett from her deathbed aren’t enough for me. Maybe my burden of proof is higher than others.

 

You're presuming a binary "lie/no lie" dynamic. It's not that simple. Lucas had lots of ideas, as we can see in the early drafts and notes. In the earlier drafts of what became ANH and ESB, Vader is transparently not Luke's father because Luke's father appears, as a different character. However, Lucas might have, in the days of aforementioned notes, liked the idea of a hero whose father was evil, or something. As we know, that type of idea gets incorporated into the saga with ESB. This, coupled with the facts that memory is not even close to perfect and that it does feel good to present oneself as having things planned out, makes it perfectly believable to me that Lucas would be able to tell different stories at different times.

As for "other lies," again I don't know that I'd put it that strongly but look up the history of quotes by Lucas about the sequel films. They morph and change, maybe to an even greater degree than do his explanations of the arc of the saga ("the tragedy of Darth Vader").

Which linchpin of Zombie's did you mean?

 

If Brackett was so well-regarded how do you explain her work (or lack thereof) in the 10 years leading up to her draft of ESB?

I NEVER said Lucas had no intention of using her script. Lucas was a fan of Westerns, she had written primarily Westerns and he admits he had a fondness for her which likely led to her hiring.

It wasn’t until after reading her script he realized he couldn’t use it. Perhaps this is why upon hiring the next screenwriter he decided to share all the information possible with him.

Lucas’ original plan for the Saga was to direct the first movie, create the universe and characters and then hand the franchise off to different writers and directors for each subsequent movie. So maybe he calls in a writer of Westerns and says, “Give me an ice planet, some new creatures, the heroes get separated and run with it. Leigh Brackett give me your take on a Star Wars movie.”

Is it possible Brackett’s draft was so (I won’t use the word “bad”) unStar Warsy that it forced him to abandon that idea for the next 30 years? And only now that he’s a worn-out, old man is he ready to attempt to hand it off again.

Lucas is on record as saying it was his fondness for Brackett and her death that prompted him to give her a writing credit for ESB (of course Lucas could be lying again). So whatever the normal criteria of original content or usable content are to receive a writing credit, she didn’t meet it.

Lucas also claims he consulted child psychiatrists regarding the “reveal” of Vader. Maybe during the time Brackett was writing her draft he was debating “If” to do the reveal, “how” to do it, “WHEN” to do. Perhaps the “reveal” wasn’t supposed to come until Episode VI or VII or VIII. Why are we so locked into ESB? We all know the timeline of the Saga was accelerated. Emperor wasn’t supposed to die until Episode IX, etc., etc.

Also with the reveal coming so late in ESB it doesn’t impact any of the plot sequences and if you examine it closely how many actual lines of dialogue are affected? Three?

“That’s not true. That’s impossible”, works with “Obi-Wan killed your father.” Same goes for “Ben, why didn’t you tell me.” Why would the first draft screenwriter need to know the big reveal if it could be inserted in so easily?

Let’s see if this theory bakes your noodle….

When Darth Vader was “born” the good man that was Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist. Thus allowing Father Skywalker to appear in spirit form to Luke (a la the young Hayden Christenson in RoTJ) in the same script that features Darth Vader as a separate entity. Right back to Lucas’ split-persona philosophy regarding the character.

So as you see; while I sit here in my underwear in my parent’s basement I can shoot a thousand and one holes through the notion that Brackett’s ESB draft is a piece of information that holds up to cross examination. As I said before it is not conclusive to either side of the debate.

 

In the Star Wars Annotated Screenplays Bouzereau says that he was allowed to flip through very early outlines for the Saga. A document that can essential be referred to as The Journal of the Whills.

In the version of "the secret history of star wars" that I wasted my time reading, zombie wrote that statement must be untrue because no document of that nature existed. So zombie reconciled the contradiction between his manifesto and the Annotated Screenplays by asserted Bourzereau lied about seeing this document or a LucasBooks editor added that passage in.

This is going back many years, so forgive if I'm off slightly on the details but that is the basic gist of it. Perhaps zombie removed this claim from his manifesto in subsequent revisions. Regardless it give you a peak into his mindset. He had a agenda to push and any evidence to the contrary to that agenda was disregarded or treated as a lie or grand conspiracy carried out by LucasFilm minions.

 

He also claims that he was debating on whether to have the reveal in the second film or the third film, which leads into.......

The Emperor not dying until 'Episode IX' comes solely from G. Kurtz, and has no other circumstantial evidence contemporary from the time period in question - say, 1978 to 1981 - to back it up. Otoh, during a Dec 1975 story conference between Lucas, sci-fi writer Alan Dean Foster, and F/X supervisor John Dykstra, Lucas laid out an 'embryonic saga plan' consisting of SW plus TWO sequels, with the Skywalker AND Rebels vs. Empire plot ending in 'Book THREE'. And more importantly for our discussion, Lucas mentions a Vader 'reveal' of sorts taking place at the end of 'Book Two'. Keep in mind though, that Ben's "he (Vader) betrayed and murdered your father" wasn't in the version of the script that was in operation at the time of that story meeting, so this was the most probable content of the 'revelation' that was slated for the first sequel. Of course with SW, Lucas ended up revealing to both Luke AND the audience Vader's role in Annikin-Father-Skywalker's death, so the Vader 'shocker' for the end of the sequel would need to be either dropped or changed to something else (imo, that 'something else' eventually became the 'Father-Vader' sub-plot).

This would hinge of course on the 'split-persona' theory being operative back when Lucas made TESB. The original 1983 version of ROTJ would argue against this, though it's conceivably possible that Lucas considered the above angle when writing TESB. At any rate, the 'split-persona' philosophy seems to be the result of the original scenario (Vader + Annikin = two literally separate characters, one literally killing the other) 'creeping back' into the newer (post-Father Vader ret-con) story.

As for the Vader "birth" aspect, the late summer 1977 scenario that Lucas elaborates to Carol Titleman in the Rinzler Making of SW book paints a different picture: here, Annikin is the LAST of the Jedi to die in the Empire's purge, NOT the 'first' to 'die'. Had Annikin been written to be the first Jedi betrayed in the 1977 scenario, you might have had a point with the 'birth' and 'death' thing.

On the contrary; it's conclusive as to Lucas' thought processes during that time and place (late '77/early '78). To say otherwise is to give undue weight to Lucas' later day (mid-to-late 90's) commentary.

 

He also claims that he was debating on whether to have the reveal in the second film or the third film, which leads into.......

The Emperor not dying until 'Episode IX' comes solely from G. Kurtz, and has no other circumstantial evidence contemporary from the time period in question - say, 1978 to 1981 - to back it up. Otoh, during a Dec 1975 story conference between Lucas, sci-fi writer Alan Dean Foster, and F/X supervisor John Dykstra, Lucas laid out an 'embryonic saga plan' consisting of SW plus TWO sequels, with the Skywalker AND Rebels vs. Empire plot ending in 'Book THREE'. And more importantly for our discussion, Lucas mentions a Vader 'reveal' of sorts taking place at the end of 'Book Two'. Keep in mind though, that Ben's "he (Vader) betrayed and murdered your father" wasn't in the version of the script that was in operation at the time of that story meeting, so this was the most probable content of the 'revelation' that was slated for the first sequel. Of course with SW, Lucas ended up revealing to both Luke AND the audience Vader's role in Annikin-Father-Skywalker's death, so the Vader 'shocker' for the end of the sequel would need to be either dropped or changed to something else (imo, that 'something else' eventually became the 'Father-Vader' sub-plot).

This would hinge of course on the 'split-persona' theory being operative back when Lucas made TESB. The original 1983 version of ROTJ would argue against this, though it's conceivably possible that Lucas considered the above angle when writing TESB. At any rate, the 'split-persona' philosophy seems to be the result of the original scenario (Vader + Annikin = two literally separate characters, one literally killing the other) 'creeping back' into the newer (post-Father Vader ret-con) story.

As for the Vader "birth" aspect, the late summer 1977 scenario that Lucas elaborates to Carol Titleman in the Rinzler Making of SW book paints a different picture: here, Annikin is the LAST of the Jedi to die in the Empire's purge, NOT the 'first' to 'die'. Had Annikin been written to be the first Jedi betrayed in the 1977 scenario, you might have had a point with the 'birth' and 'death' thing.

On the contrary; it's conclusive as to Lucas' thought processes during that time and place (late '77/early '78). To say otherwise is to give undue weight to Lucas' later day (mid-to-late 90's) commentary.

 

Point 1. In 1983's RoTJ you can't have a young actor be Anakin's force ghost. The target audience (13 yr old boys) would have no idea what was going on. He was stuck with an older actor. As soon as he had a chance to rectify that situation, he did. But again I just threw that theory out there to prove a point.

Point 2. Brackett's draft is NOT conclusive to Lucas' thought processes. It is only conclusive to what a very ill Brackett extrapolated from meetings with Lucas. The end result being not very much he choose to use.

 

Your post above assumes that in '82/'83 Lucas was intending for a younger Luke-aged-Anakin for the PT back-story all along, but somehow was 'stuck' with an older actor. But I'm thinking a more plausible reason for Lucas hiring an older actor to play Anakin had to do with the script that he and Kasdan wrote together, where Anakin is explicitly called 'elderly' (the draft previous to the shooting script has Anakin's age as being 'about 60 yrs old'). So my point didn't just hinge on the actor playing Anakin both as un-masked Vader and as the Force ghost. Basically, the 'split-persona' theory of Anakin/Vader is predicated upon the PT and the SE's.

This assumes that her draft deviated substantially from both Lucas' story treatment AND from the story meetings/brain storming sessions she had with Lucas in late '77.

 

Just another idea to throw into the mix....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Brackett's ESB draft the first time the great idea man, George Lucas, had attempted to have another writer put his grandiose visions down on paper?

Maybe he was just really bad at explaining what he wanted.

 

Prior to Avatar, James Cameron had not directed a movie for over ten years. Does that indicate that he wasn't well regarded during that time?
Or take Sean Connery, he hasn't acted in a movie for ten years, does that mean he isn't a well regarded actor anymore?

The term "couldn't use it" is not accurate. The basic plot is very similar in Brackett's draft and the finished film. Some of the character dynamic is similar and so are quite a few scenes.
Lucas changed Vader into Luke's father, big change. He had Han leave due a debt to Jabba instead of going to see his step father in order to get his support against the empire and Han was still a prisoner at the end. The other is established as Luke's sister and while it wasn't that clear in the finished film, the sister plot came back in RotJ.
There is less difference between Brackett's draft and the finished film than with some of the ANH drafts/synopsis and that finished film.

Very likely and if he wanted her take and planned to actually use it, he wouldn't lie to her or leave out crucial information. If he had Vader as the father, even if he against all logic did not decide to tell her, he could say "don't mention Luke's father as I have something in mind but I need to think about it."
That way her script is useful and won't contain something that totally contradicts a major plot point.

I don't find it very "un Star Warsy", no more so than some of Lucas earlier drafts of ANH. It is too wordy at times and in need of polish but so did Lucas earlier drafts.

What exactly the rules for a writing credit is seem to be very complicated. I know that Terry Gilliam, who threw out the previous script and did a page one rewrite still wasn't supposed to get ANY credit. The two previous writers, whose script wasn't used in any shape or form, were to get SOLE credit. He had to fight to get his and his co-writer's credit on the movie.
Given that much of the plot and scenes in Brackett's draft are in the finished film, I can't see why she wouldn't get credit. Unless Lucas wrote the entire thing himself but if that is the case then Lucas wrote the bit with the ghost of Luke's father.

If he had any ideas about this reveal, then as I said, tell Brackett NOT to include anything about Luke's father.
Having the ghost of Luke's father appear along with Obi-Wan is not something that you can extrapolate from ANH. We only heard Obi-Wans voice, we didn't see his ghost. So if the visible ghosts were ALL Brackett's idea and Lucas never said anything about it, then we have one clear example of Lucas using something from her draft.

The reveal totally pulls out the rug underneath Luke's feet and cast Obi-Wan and Yoda in a very questionable light. They lied to him about a major thing like that, what else have they lied about?

The script writer needs to know so that he or she doesn't write scenes that totally contradict it. And Brackett's draft has some scenes that do totally contradict this. And if Lucas was giving her free reign then she could have written that Vader gets killed at the end or any number of things that would destroy Lucas "master plan".

I have come across this and similar concepts before. I have several problems with it, first it reduces Vader to nothing more than an animated corpse possessed by a Demon. Second, if Vader is a totally separate being from Luke's father, then all Luke is doing is destroying his father's already dead corpse, not something challenging. Third it makes Vader into an uninteresting character, even with him NOT being Luke's father, he had a backstory, reasons why he did what he did and so on. Reducing him to just a Dark Side Demon would do a disservice to the character.

[/QUOTE]

Really?
FACT: The initial draft of ESB was titled "chapter II", this totally contradicts the later claims that ANH was always ep IV.
FACT: In Brackett's draft, not only do Luke's father appear as a totally separate being from Vader but you also have Vader talking and thinking about Luke's father and from those it is vey clear that he isn't thinking about himself.
FACT: In some of the drafts of ANH, Vader is NOT the father of the hero because that father is shown as alive and as a separate person. In other drafts, Vader dies at the end. So Brackett's draft is consistent with those drafts.
FACT: Lucas told people he worked with some of his ideas for other SW films and he directly mentioned Obi-Wan, Vader AND Luke's father and he even mentioned the circumstances when Luke's father died, at the battle of Condawn if I recall correctly.

In closing, looking at the earlier drafts of ANH, at Brackett's draft as well as Lucas own words from the time we get a pretty consistent idea of the evolution of SW and Vader in particular. He went from not appearing at all, to minor villain that died, to major villain that died, to major villain that survived to fight another day to the big shock, he is also the father of the hero.

But if instead Lucas had Vader as Luke's father form the get go we have all sorts of problems. First with Lucas writing drafts that not only did not support that but totally contradict it. Second, Lucas telling his co-workers lies for no reason. Third Lucas telling his script writer lies for no reason.
Taking Lucas more recent claims over all other evidence is an appeal to authority fallacy.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Well you have the novel "Splinter in the minds eye" which was written by Alan Dean Foster and as I understand it is based on Lucas earlier ideas for a SW sequel. This was before ANH was released and became a huge hit and at this time, Lucas though he could maybe do 2-3 low budget sequels.
Han is not in it nor is Obi-Wan.
Alan Dean Foster also ghost wrote the novel version of ANH, which was based on the script. That novel, incidentally, makes it clear that Obi-Wan ISN'T lying to Luke when talking about Vader and his father.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

1) Sure you can have a younger actor as Anakin. Cast someone in his late 30's- early 40's and have that person do the unmasking scene with makeup and scars and all. Then in the ghost scene all of those are gone. The audience could still recognize that ghost Anakin is the same person but now looks a lot younger and they could get the idea "oh this is what Luke's father looked like before he turned."
But as TS said, even the RotJ script called Anakin's ghost "Elderly".

2) No, It IS conclusive to Lucas thought process because many things from that script made it to the final film. Since you still have not been able to prove that the ghost of Luke's father was something that Brackett came up with all by herself along with the various lines that separate Vader from Luke's father. If was her idea, she would have mentioned it in the story conferences and since it made in the script Lucas did not put a stop to it.
If it wasn't her idea then it must have come from Lucas. Either way it is evidence of what Lucas was thinking at the time.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Lucas' first draft of ANH was nothing more than a remake of The Hidden Fortress. The Skywalker Family Saga evolved from 1973 to 1977. I, nor do I think anyone else is arguing that Lucas had Father Vader in 1973. So when you say "from the get go" that isn't the crux of the matter. The question remains is there enough evidence to conclude Father Vader was created prior to ESB or prior to the filming of ANH?

The way I understand Splinter of the Mind's Eye, it was more a case of Lucas telling Foster what he couldn't go into. The main topic that was off limits was Vader's background....curious.

The Force Ghost of Luke's father was very much in Lucas' mind. So much so, that he appeared in RoTJ.

Is it possible that during the early script meetings for ESB that Lucas had 5 or more movies worth of ideas swirling around his head and was spitting out "do's", "don'ts", backstories, motivations, future plans, etc., etc. a mile a minute and some of what he said or jotted down could have been misconstrued?

 

I'm also curious why the Episode IX from Kurtz, the producer of American Graffiti, Star Wars and the ESB who work with Lucas on daily basis for years, is deemed an uncredible piece of information?

While on the other hand, Brackett's death-bed first draft of ESB is a rock-solid smoking gun?

 

Anyway, way back when you dig through "The Star Wars" draft, there is a father and son team so that motif was always sort of buried deep into the DNA of Star Wars itself (The spectre of Luke's father hangs over ANH, even moreso when you know that it's Vader). I think with making Vader the father, Lucas took a subtext theme of the series and shoved it right into the forefront.