Saga Biggest Plot Holes & Inconsistencies

Errmm...except where the very absence of evidence is the issue at hand. It's not an argument of 'logic' but addressing that in terms of it being a plot hole the very absence is the issue.

I don't understand your point. All I've said is that the lack of any mention leaves whatever anyone wants to place there as legitimate as anything anyone else decides to put there. There is as much 'evidence' that there was an investigation as that there wasn't - ie there is no evidence one way or the other. What 'foregone conclusion' does that suggest?

Really? That's it? Could you expand upon that, perhaps explain in what way you disagree? Let me help you out; We hear Obi-Wan say that he believed Sifo-Dyas was already dead by the time the army was ordered - and neither Jedi Master contradicts that; we then hear that Jango says he's never heard of Sifo-Dyas and that he was approached (to be the template of the clone army) by a man named Tyrranus - who we discover is Dooku. In what way does the dialogue not lead to the conclusion that Dooku was actually behind the clone army? This comes back to the same question you have been asked a number of times, and which you have ignored; what do you propose the viewer is supposed to take from that dialogue?

Hence why I questioned how it came about that it went under the radar. Do I need to explain this? If the Jedi knew of it then....durrhh(slaps forehead and crosses eyes), how stupid must they be. So, we have a contingency order which no-one knows about (ie under the radar...) in an army for the Republic..... was there no due dilligence? Did the Kaminoans not pass that information on? None of it explained.

 

Saying that a story is judged based on what is in the story and not the stories written after the fact is not a strawman. Only someone emotionally invested in defending these movies would even suggest that it is. It's beyond absurd. A story is judged BASED ON WHAT IS IN THE STORY..

 

I think you have misunderstood my position, the jedi NOT investigating is NOT a Plot Hole to me.
I said that IF the audience seeing RotS was supposed to know all the EU stuff, like for example that Sifo-Dyas really DID order the army, despite what AotC said. THEN it is a Plot Hole.
Why? Because this info is not in any of the movies and IF the movie audience is supposed to be aware of it then it not being there makes it a plot hole.

You don't need to invent slaves, what about say Jabbas musicians? They were onboard where they not? They were not armed as far as I know and didn't fight Luke. There would have been people onboard that did not actively fight Luke and the others. But as far as the movie shows, Luke kills them.
The movie gives very little time for Luke to search the ship, Luke gets to the top of the barge and is involved in fighting there until Leia gets up there. Then she points it towards the deck and Luke sets it of. I don't think there is room to imagine Luke doing any kind of searching. So given that, either he KNEW that no innocents were down there, but as you say, how could he know that? Then the alternative is that he didn't care.
You make it a problem with Luke killing innocents and this would be against his character.
How so? Has Luke ever been in a situation where he held back using deadly force just because he worried about collateral damage? I don't have a single example. He blew up the DS, possibly killing many innocents. You say it was a military attack but he still did it, so that shows he is capable of it.

Luke possibly killing non-combatants on Jabbas barge I think is implied. His concern was to save Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando and the droids. The lives on the barge seemed to matter little to him.
Just take the fact that he BLOWS IT UP. Why did he do that? Most of the guards were dead by that stage, they had won. But Luke wanted to make sure that no one tried anything so he blew the whole thing up. A bit extreme wouldn't you say? Was there a big chance that the few remaining guards would try anything? But he did blow it up, killing all those that were left onboard.

The difference still is the RotJ situation is a made up problem. The movie seem to show Luke destroying that barge and seemingly not caring if any non-combatants where killed.
The army is a very real problem that we KNOW the characters are aware of.
Also, as other have said, the barge situation has no relevance on later events, the clone army does.
At most if makes a change to Luke's character.
And this is my main argument with the Jedi, them NOT investigating anything or asking questions or wondering about the possibilities makes them seem dumb. It weakens them as characters and thus it weakens the drama and their deaths.
Also it is another example of plot points in the PT where people have to become stupid in order for the plot to work.

The Jedi know all the audience knows, except that Dooku is Tyrannus. They know that there is a big question mark over who really ordered the army. Given what we are told, they would conclude that it was ordered under a false name. That is more than enough to worry and be cautions.
Plus, lets not forget the Jedi LIVE in this galaxy, they would know infinitely more about it than people that saw a two hour movie. And they have far more reasons to care about it.

I repeat, the lack of investigating is NOT a Plot Hole, it just makes the Jedi seem dumb.

And if you want to assume that Luke made sure no innocents were caught in the cross fire, then you can imagine that just fine. However if I try to imagine the Jedi investigating, then I find just more reasons that they should be worried about the Clone Army, like confirming it was ordered under a false name. The tampering with their archives pointing to Dooku and combined that with the Jango conncetion they have more than enough to SUSPECT he ordered the army.
And unless they can prove that this DIDN'T happen, they have enough reasons to be careful with the army.

So the problem doesn't go away if I imagine things, it just gets worse. Unless I decide to imagine things that run counter to the movie. Instead I go with what I saw and I saw no investigations what so ever so the simplest conclusion is that none occurred.

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What basis do you have for thinking that the Kamino people never met "Sifo-Dyas"? I find nothing that implies that in the film. Also why would they be aware of his death? Unless it made galactic headlines, and I doubt that, they would never find out. In fact, given what the film implies, Sifo-Dyas was already dead when they met/talked with whoever posed as Sifo-Dyas and that didn't set of any alarm bells so they aren't up to date with the recent deaths in the galaxy.

The Jedi CAN check the dates, as I already mentioned and that could prove beyond a doubt that the army was ordered under a false name. They could ask the Kamino people how they got the order, in person or by message. If in person then show them a photo of Dooku to check that option. If by message, try and trace the message. The money is also a lead, it MIGHT be untraceable but it might not be. Either way it is a lead.

To sum up, the Jedi are aware of lots of question marks about this new army, like who ordered it, why, who paid for it, etc. This gives them plenty of reasons to dig deeper into this.
They have leads to pursue and some could at least answer the question whether Sifo-Dyas really was dead when the order was placed or not.
Much of this digging would not require a lot of people, one or two would be enough.. They are at war yes but nations at war do not totally shut down all other activities in order to deal with the war.
The US even has an election during WW2.

You say that they need much to convince the senate and that is probably true. But they can investigate for themselves first and foremost. If they can determine that Sifo-Dyas did NOT order the clone army then that is enough to make them be cautious with it. Then that fact could have been talked about in RotS when they are discussing Palpatine and him maybe not stepping down and the need to remove him by force. The clone army is hardly irrelevant in that discussion. But they say nothing.
Also, in RotS, Mace does say that the Jedi would have to take control of the senate to secure a peaceful transition. So they are clearly considering to act even without the senates ok.

In short, the total lack of any investigations and the complete surprise the Jedi show when the army turns on them leads me to believe that they did no digging at all between AotC and RotS.
And given that AotC spent so much time on this plot thread, I find it weak writing to just abandon it and I think the results of off-screen investigations could have fitted very well into the movie and made it even better.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I prefer "they dug- and found the evidence that Sifo-Dyas did order the army (and that Obi-Wan's "impression that he was killed before that" was wrong".

As to why Lucas chose to leave the references to their digging to James Luceno to put in Labyrinth of Evil, instead of putting them himself into RoTS- maybe he thought the movie was already crowded enough. Quite a few scenes in the RoTS novelization ended up being cut from the final script for the movie- I suspect "digging references" would have been even more ripe for the chop.

 

I'm a bit confused now. What's the problem with what the films present then? So...we're in agreement then? That it is not a plot hole?

I would find it problematic because it would basically have Luke make the same mistakes as Anakin. It's one thing to destroy the Death Stars where it's a military endeavor designed to protect the galaxy (not to mention the fact that the Death Star is a military installation). It's quite another, though, to kill so many innocents just to rescue Han. To me, it's much too reminiscent of Anakin's willingness to kill innocents to save Padmé.

In the case with the Death Stars -- Luke is defending the galaxy and the Rebellion. He's destroying a weapon. But with Han, the only person that is saved is Han himself. To me, it's just too reminiscent of what Anakin does --> sacrificing many lives to save the one person he cares about.

Well...I would say, then, that all those people died to save Han (since Leia, Chewie, Lando, and the droids would never have been in danger if they hadn't tried to rescue him). In which case, I guess Luke did make that choice. It doesn't really sit right with me, though. Perhaps it is done to emphasize how Luke risks becoming his father? Still, though, it bothers me that Anakin is so censured for such actions when Luke's aren't brought up.

I don't know...to me it seems very out of character for Luke not to care that he could kill innocent people -- or at least not to try to avoid it if he could. That's why I kind of see it as a plot hole. Because it seems as though Luke is acting out of character.

In regards to the Jedi, the film doesn't show any of the investigation, true, but that doesn't mean they didn't investigate. Now, if they had flat out stated that they don't care where the clones came from and to forget any investigations, I would agree with you, but they don't.

The most likely answer, in my mind, is that if any investigation was conducted, it wasn't conducted by the Jedi. Palpatine would obviously want a Senate committee to handle it and the Jedi, with their new duties in leading the war, probably would be relieved to leave it to the Senate. They certainly follow their lead in accepting the clone army, so I wouldn't see this as very out of character.

Well, not exactly. A lot about the clone army doesn't make sense until one realizes that Palpatine is Sidious. At the end of AOTC (presuming that one doesn't know that Palpatine = Sidious), it's only clear to the audience that Dooku is behind the army but not exactly what he intends to do with it. He did tell Obi-Wan about the Senate being controlled by a Sith Lord. Dooku's motives -- and thus the Sith's plan -- aren't made entirely clear until ROTS.

You're correct that the Jedi should be worried and cautious, but I think it comes down to the fact that they've got the Separatist army on their doorstep. Plus, I think you also have to consider that the audience's limited knowledge is often an advantage. Because then, it's much easier us to know what is important and what is not -- to filter out the white noise and misdirection. As an example (Harry Potter, I hope you don't mind), in Half-Blood Prince, when Harry realizes that the locket he and Dumbledore got from the cave is fake and the real one was taken by R.A.B, I immediately realized that it was Regulus Black. Why? Well, I had read the books over many, many times and I remembered how Sirius mentioned that his brother Regulus was a Death Eater. Additionally, I remembered a scene from the previous book where Harry was cleaning out the Black house and a line mentioned how he found a locket that none of them could open.

Because I knew I was reading a book, that JK Rowling had a tendency of introducing tiny (but important details), I figured this out long before Harry and company did. I knew right away, whereas it took them months to figure it out.

I don't know if dumb is the right word. Foolish perhaps? I don't think they are unintelligent, but I do think that they made unwise decisions because of circumstances to do with the Senate and the war.

I mentioned this earlier but, if anything, I think the Jedi would have likely thought that Dooku's involvement would have been to prevent them from finding the Clone Army. Because if you are right and they conclude that Dooku deleted the entry of Kamino from the archives, why would that mean that he was trying to have them find it? If anything, that seems to indicate that Dooku was covering it up.

As far as the films show, the Kaminoans are incredibly insular. Dex says they keep to themselves and the films indicate, because they didn't know that Sifo Dyas was dead, that they never bothered to reach out to him. Dex's indications are that they only really care about money. So I don't know that they never met him, but I just think it's unlikely. To me, it seems most likely that they got an order and were paid and that was good enough for them.

Sure, but again, I don't think this is a plot hole if it doesn't appear in the films. If the Kaminoans were shown to have a rigorous screening process, I'd agree, but to me it seems as though they only care about getting paid and are perfectly happy to let their clients stay away. They even say to Obi-Wan that they were beginning to think that the Jedi weren't coming -- meaning that it's been a while since they've had any contact. Yet, they did nothing.

But, see, the Jedi aren't a nation. The United States has hundreds of millions of people. The United States had 130,000,000 people during WWII. The Jedi, based on the size of the Temple, have a few thousand at most. And they are already involved deeply in the war effort. I don't think it's unreasonable, therefore, to conclude that the Senate would have appointed someone else to conduct the investigations. They likely wouldn't want the Jedi to be distracted. And AOTC demonstrates that the Jedi still respect the will of the Senate (however ill-advised that may be).

Of course, but that was an extreme situation. Also note that, initially, the Jedi only wanted to arrest Palpatine and allow the Senate to "decide his fate." And this was when they had heard that he was a Sith Lord. Mace Windu then unilaterally decides to kill Palpatine once he reveals the extent of his powers, but the Jedi still considered themselves servants of the Senate. Throughout AOTC, they never showed any indications of going against the Senate and those early days of the war would likely have been the most difficult, given that it would be a logistical nightmare for the Jedi.

There's no indications either way that investigations occurred or didn't. The Jedi may not have been the ones to conduct the investigations, for instance. Or the investigation might have been bungled or sabotaged. Personally, the circumstances work well enough for me that I can understand why the Jedi proceeded the way they did. For me, it would have odd for the Jedi to be looking at the clone army at that stage of the game in ROTS when they are so close to ending the war and when Palpatine has become the focus of their suspicions. But that's just me.

 

Again, I think you make good points, but before I go on, I'd like to just point out something. Defining a plothole is not an exact science. It's made up term for a made up problem. I'm not saying the word has no meaning at all, but I think you can recognize that the term might mean slightly different things to different people. So, I hope, when you read through my responses, you try to see where I'm coming from. I'm not particularly saying that it's wrong for you to think of it as a plothole. All I'm saying is that it doesn't fit the term for me, though as I said above it is close.

Like I said, I think it would have been better if he had found a time to mention in ROTS what the investigation, which occurred off-screen, found. As it is, I assume the Jedi have investigated and come to a dead end, and I think it has to come an a dead end b/c if they learned that the connection between Tyrranus and Dooku, and Dooku's (the leader of the opposing army) involvement in the creation of the "good guy" clone army. That would provide pretty strong evidence that the whole thing is a sham war. For that reason, they'd probably be trying to take Palpatine out, since he would be presumably in on the sham. Since they are not that strongly suspicious of Palpatine, the audience logically would assume that the investigation ended in a dead end, which is not really the most exciting thing to see on screen, but I agree. It would have been better if GL had found a place to put in a few lines about it ending up in a dead end. And if you can find a place and I agree that that place works for me, then that would solve the issue for us at least. Personally I'm not sure a place like that exists, but I haven't gone through the film scene by scene and looked for a place where those lines can be added. I would also say that if there is a very logical place those lines can be added, then GL did fail b/c those lines would probably only take 30 secs of screen time, and it would clarify exactly how they responded to the Sifo-Dyas mystery, but again, I would also say that films often leave a lot to people to assume, and they fall back position would be that they investigated and it came to nothing b/c if they hadn't they'd be far more suspicious of Palpatine.

The reason to think that Dyas died after he ordered it is b/c Obi-Wan wasn't sure. So, as a film viewer, I say, "Oh, I guess Obi remembered wrong." If Obi seemed sure and the council agreed with him, then I would agree with you.

Right, but this is also part of my point. The viewer hears the main part of the mystery solved. Dooku was somehow involved in the creation of the clone army and so was Palpatine. All we don't know was whether Sifo was a willing participant or his name was used or he was tricked into it. We know the most important thing -- that Palpatine/Dooku were ultimately involved. This is why I don't consider it a plot hole b/c the most important stuff is answered for the viewer.

Here I disagree with you. I don't feel the film has told us this. Obi may or may not have remembered correctly, and a middle man or may not have been used, and using middle men is very common. All the film has told us is that maybe what you have learned is nefarious or maybe it can be explained by normal stuff (bad memory and middle man). Then as an audience, we learn that it is nefarious and that Dooku/Palpatine were behind it, so all that's left is finding out what the details are of what happened to a guy we've never seen onscreen. To me that stuff isn't important enough to the plot to deserve screen time (except maybe a mention in ROTS) since we already know who was behind it Dooku/Palaptine. I think you can see where I'm coming from.

 

I honestly don't think Padme was much of a threat to Palpatine. She was one naive senator. He controlled the senate from behind the scenes. Also, it wouldn't do much good to kill her after the debate. She certainly would have remained an opponent of militarization after the passage of the act, and armies can always be disbanded. I don't think Dooku/Palpatine would have worried about her in the least. Dooku was simply trying to have her killed to please Nute Gunray (which I think is kind of lame), but that's the motive given to us in the films.

All I can say is that I was mildly interested in finding out what happened, but my wife, who saw it 3 times in the theatre with me, and multiple times on TV couldn't remember exactly who Sifo-Dyas was, so she knows the films pretty well, and most people probably only saw it once. So, I would assume most people wouldn't remember it. In fact, I had to watch ATOC on DVD to remind myself what exactly went on with the Sifo-Dyas thing.

Well, I'm certainly not a fan of governments doing most of this stuff, though I recognize the need to keep some defense matters classified. Again, my main point is that this type of stuff has always gone on in democracies, so the fact that Palpatine along with a defense sub-committee ordered an army to protect the Republic in case of emergencies shouldn't raise red flags. If they wondered why the army was created or who funded it, they'd simply come to the conclusion that Palpatine did it as a classified order and that Palpatine's use of a classified order is simply business as usual, as unfortunate as this is.

All I'm doing is making an assumption about what the Jedi would think. Since most films don't have voice-overs that tell us what to think, people have to make assumptions about what characters are thinking. So the question is does the assumption make sense. So here's my assumption -- bounty hunters aren't evil. They work on a fee-for-hire basis. So a great bounty hunter like Jango was hired by Dooku to do one thing and he was hired to be the template for the clones by someone else. Again, I'm just making an assumption about what the Jedi are thinking, and since we can't hear their thoughts, that's what viewers always have to do.

Again, I'm not saying that an investigation didn't take place. I'm simply saying that we have enough info to accept that an investigation happened off screen and that it hit a dead end. I also agree that GL should have mentioned that this dead end investigation did occur if he could find the appropriate scene to slip it into in ROTS.

Trust me. I know much more than most about what the US government has done -- backing Pinochet in Chile; supporting a Guatemalan government that tried to wipe out its native population; ignoring the genocide in Rwanda. The list goes on and on. I'm simply saying that all democracies do this type of crap. The UK with the IRA. France with Haiti and Algeria. Trust me. I'm very much against it, and the ever-presence of these things in democracies makes me wonder if true civilized democracies can ever exist. All I'm saying is that these things are just as much true for the Galactic Republic as they are for us, so if Palpatine creates a clone army to defend the Republic and I'm a Jedi, then I think to myself, "Same old, same old."

I also think there's some truth to what's implied in what you're saying. Perhaps the Jedi never should have allied themselves with the Galactic Republic b/c it is so corrupt, or perhaps the Jedi, instead of aligning themselves with the Republic, should've made it their mission to root out corruption in the Republic. However, I'm certain that the Republic wouldn't allow the Jedi to be protectors of the peace and an anti-corruption investigative body at the same time. In the end, the Jedi must have made the choice to accept that these types of things always go on in democracies and accepted that a democracy, though flawed, is still better than the alternatives. And again, as I said above, I think the Jedi should've investigated the situation. I simply think once the investigation hit a dead end, then they would conclude that Palpatine (maybe along with a Senatorial sub-committie) made a classified order to create the army to protect the Republic, and that the Jedi would simply think, "Yep, that's how things work in this democracy. We can't depose Palpatine or even make a to do just b/c he made a classified order." I think you can see where I'm coming from here.

 

My position with this is that the lack on investigations, questions or speculations on the jedi's part indicate that they did nothing at all about the Clone army. They got handed it to them under highly suspicious circumstances but they used it, no questions asked and when the army turned on them they were taken totally by surprise. This is no plot hole, it even fits well with the how the Jedi normally act as they tend to do little or nothing at all about problems and mostly hope they will go away if they ignore them. It does make the Jedi seem clueless or dimwitted. This in turn weakens the drama of their deaths and it weakens Palpatine as a villain as he beat a rather incompetent adversary. It also bugs me as it another example of plot points that rely on characters being stupid in order for the plot to work.

In the past, others have objected to this and used a bunch of EU stuff to show that the Jedi did investigate a lot and they found out a great deal, like Sifo-Dyas really being the one to order the army. My position to that is, IF RotS was made with the intent that the audience should be aware of all that stuff, THEN it is a Plot Hole. Because information that audience is supposed to be aware of is missing from the films.

In short, assuming that the Jedi DIDN'T investigate or question the clone army is reasonable based on the two movies, AotC and RotS. So you can't call that assumption wrong because nothing in the films disproves it.

There are some key differences between Luke and Anakin when it comes to this;
1) Anakin is reacting to a POSSIBLE danger to Padme, Luke KNOWS that Han is in Jabbas hands and could be killed or tortured or a number of other horrible things.
2) Luke is going to rescue Han and he has a plan, first he tries stealth with Leia, then diplomacy and when all that fails, he uses deadly force. People die, some that were not directly involved but to Luke it is worth it.
Anakin betrays his friends and colleagues, personally kills children and willing serves a man who has orchestrated a fake war that have killed millions (maybe). Also he has no idea if all his horrible actions would even work, he just takes the word of someone that has lied and deceived an entire galaxy. Nor does he pause to consider how Padme would react to all this. Imagine if Luke got Han out by selling Leia and Chewie to Jabba and leaving them there. I doubt Han would like that very much.
3) Luke takes actions that will take out hostile combatants and non-combatants at the same time.
Anakin deliberately slaughters non-combatants and children to boot.

You can call Luke's actions in RotJ questionable and I won't argue with you.
But I don't think what Luke did is the same or even comparable with Anakin.

But for it to be a Plot Hole you must have a situation where Luke is faced with possible collateral damage and refuses to act. I don't have an example of that.
Luke is by no means someone who is eager to kill or is quick to violence. With Jabba, he tried stealth and parlay but that got him nowhere.

But as I said, if they did dig deeper, they would find enough to make them more worried about the clone army and then that would have been brought up in RotS when they are talking about moving against Palpatine and the Senate. And this was BEFORE they knew he was a Sith.
Add to that the total surprise they show when the clones turn on them, to me it indicates the Jedi never once considered them a threat.

The plan isn't hard to figure out. We know that the republic doesn't have any soldiers but now they have, thanks to the Sith. The Sith have also built up a droid army and created the seps. And now the two are fighting. This was all according to plan, as Sidious said. So they were creating a civil war by making armies on both sides and setting them against each other. The Sith don't want a one-sided slaughter, because then they wouldn't have made the clone army. They want a long and costly war.
As for Palpatine, figuring that out isn't exactly hard as TPM makes it pretty clear at the end with the pan over to Palpatines face when Mace and Yoda talk about the Sith.
Add to that, in TPM, he became the leader of the republic, in AotC he has gotten almost unlimited power. Not hard to see the plan here, create a crisis and get elected to a position of power. Create a major crisis and get even more power.

But they DID figure it out and they were interested in finding out who RAB was. The Jedi show no such interest. They seemingly don't care that Jango worked for Dooku, with all that implies, nor did they seem to care that this new army they have was probably ordered under a false name

1) Simply deleting the file won't stop the republic getting the clone army because the Kamino people could contact the senate/jedi at any time. So a waste of time.
2) Dooku could only have deleted the file when he was still a Jedi and that would have been years ago.
Given the rule of two, Dooku would have turned soon after TPM and left the order around that time.
By that time, there were no seps so why would Dooku care about the clone army? Unless he already had plans to make the seps. But then a far better plan is to make the Jedi/Senate aware of this illegal army being made. Since there is no threat to the republic the senate would order a stop of production and problem solved. Or, once he had gotten the seps going, why not sabotage the cloning facilities?
He has Jango working for him so that would not be hard.
Look at this way, Dooku has known for almost ten years that the republic is building a clone army and yet just when his forces are poised to attack, said army show up and thwart him. Anyone with any sense would smell a rat here.
3) Consider other events, Dooku is trying to kill the most outspoken opponent of a bill to create an army for the republic. If she dies, then the bill would pass and the clone army would be available to the republic. If he just wanted an easy victory over the republic, his actions makes no sense. Yes Nute wants him to kill Padme, but he could do that after she speaks to the senate and the bill is stopped.

Yes they didn't know Sifo-Dyas was dead but if would have asked Padme about Sifo-Dyas, would she know he was dead? I doubt it. This is a whole galaxy we are talking about here. The Jedi keep track of their own deaths sure, but why would anyone else care? Unless it made big news and there is no indication of that.
Also the Kamino people did seem to know a bit about Sifo-Dyas, that he was a Jedi and a leading member of the Jedi Council. The prime minister asked about him when talking with Obi-Wan. If they had never met or seen him why bother? The other comments "I am sure he would have been pleased.." How did they know Sifo-Dyas was a "he"?
The name doesn't imply gender as far as I know. Now if they met/saw him then they would know.
In all, I think a face to face meeting is more implied than not.

However the comments shows that they WERE expecting someone to come and inspect the goods. They take care to show Obi-Wan around and answer all his questions. So it doesn't imply that clients NEVER visit them. The lack of contact was something they had noticed, which implies it was unusual.
So checking the dates, contact info, try and trace the money are all possible leads.

But the Jedi work for a Nation.
Say that they confirm Obi-Wans statement that Sifo-Dyas really was dead when the army was ordered. Now they KNOW the army was ordered under a false name. So reach out to a senator they can trust, like Bail. Tell him what they know and their suspicions with the clone army and ask for his help. Now they have a planet that can aid them.
If the senate is doing some digging, then that digging would uncover that the army was ordered under a false name and now the whole senate knows this. This would make them be more worried about the clone army.
The senate knows none of the fishy things about the clone army and it would not be in Palpatines interest in making any kind of investigations into this. Just hope that no one asks any questions, which no one seem to do.

The Jedi talk about removing Palpatine by Force and take over the senate, BEFORE they learn that he is a Sith. And Mace says "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi." So why doesn't he suspect that the clone army, who they know will follow any order without question, might be a part of that plot?

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If they KNOW that the army was ordered under a false name, which AotC strongly implies, then the army is something they should never forget. And it would be very relevant when they are talking about moving against the Senate and Palpatine. It would be even more relevant after they learn that Palpatine is a Sith. By then they would be able to see that the war and the clone army are all his doing.

The total lack of it, to me, makes the Jedi dumb and clueless and it weakens the film. Which is a pity because I overall like RotS quite a bit. But "idiot plots" bug me.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

darth ladnar

You are such a calm and reasonable voice here that I find myself almost compelled to agree with you. Almost. I just want you to know I think you make good points also and where I dispute with you is purely with regards to conveying why, in this instance, I do feel it is a plot hole.

If you take a look at Samuel Vimes's post #283 then this highlights (along with the many disparate explanations here) what I see as a hole in the plot. The position taken within the post is entirely supportable within the structure of the movies. This is what I mean by whatever anyone wishes to read into the gap, one can - pretty much. The question is, what is the story then? Are we to believe that Sidious ended victorious because his was such a great, wel-planned plot, that he was an incerdible intelligent, devious manipulator and strategist? Or (at the other extreme) was he victorious because he was up against some of the dumbest, most unthinking, unquestioning idiots in the universe? Either is possible with the story shown in the movies. I personally think we are supposed to understand that a great and masterful deception has been perpetrated, but to get that from the movies I have to fill in what that deception was, how it worked.

What Samuel Vimes puts forward is just as valid as any other idea. In fact, and the reason he can say it is not a plot hole, his version of events requires little (if any) invention or un-invention. No investigation is mentioned...therefore no investigation took place. Prove otherwise.

What is put forward there actually matches(explicitly) what we are shown in the films, the reason that I believe it is a plot-line is because I don't think that is what the story is supposed to be.

As I said before, if the Sifo-Dyas line was in isolation - in terms of the impression the viewer is given - this would be a stronger argument. As it is, whether Sifo-Dyas was alive or not (and though two Council members do not explicitly agree with him, they don't contradict him) it was Tyrranus (Dooku) who approached Jango - who knew nothing of Sifo-Dyas. Even if one thought 'oh, Obi-Wan must have been wrong' then there is still no reason to believe that he had anything to do with the ordering of the army. In fact, the most likely scenario - from the information given together - is that Dooku (Tyrranus) used the name Sifo-Dyas as a cover for his own interaction with the Kaminoans. So, to reach the conclusion that, by ROTS, the Jedi must have uncovered that Sifo-Dyas was involved requires one to detach from the information already imparted to the viewer. And..even if Sifo-Dyas were still alive and the Jedi found that he was involved then...that answers nothing. It should give them no cause for relief - because all that they then have is, instead of one rogue Jedi (Dooku), they have potentially two (Dooku and Sifo-Dyas). If the reasonable solution is that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army and was killed by Dooku in revenge (which I'm not sure is the reasonable conclusion - as I suggest above) then...why wasn't the order for the army cancelled? And there is still the link between Dooku and Jango.

But that isn't the aspect that I consider a plot-hole. It is how this plan was got by the people of the Republic and the Jedi. It is set up within AOTC as a mystery and then....not addressed. It is not that the Sith are behind the Clone Army (which the audience is fed in AOTC and simply has confirmed in ROTS) but rather that the plot-line requires that the Sith get that information under the radar of the Jedi and the rest of the Republic - that is the mystery that is set up in AOTC and that is simply not addressed again. How he did that is, to me, an important aspect of the story. I'd say that is the plot-line.

But, as I have argued before, whether they find Sifo-Dyas was alive or not answers nothing. It means they have two, rather then one, Jedi going about doing odd things - one of whom turns out to be a Sith Lord. Whether Sifo-Dyas simply used a middle man or not, he was acting outside of the knowledge of the Council and so his actions are as suspicious as Dooku's.

 

I don't think you've understood my point. You argued that, from the Jedi perspective, it would serve no purpose to Dooku to have an army of the Republic stand against his droid army. I was pointing out that this is brought into question by his attempts to nullify Padmé prior to her speaking in the debate on creating an army in the Senate. Her participation is portrayed as being vital within the debate. That Dooku attempted to kill her prior to that discussion would alter the thinking on whether it suited Dooku's purpose to have an army of the Republic.

What I meant though, by the Sifo-Dyas thing, is not necessarily who Sifo-Dyas was, but rather the storyline that he represents. ie, the mystery of how the Sith sneaked the weapon of the Jedi's destruction and the Republic's enslavement under everybody's nose. That is what AOTC, to me, sets up and then....it turns out the answer (from the movies) is...they just did.

Exactly my point. You have to invent the scenario.

I wasn't attempting to give you a history lesson (and it seems you require none) I was merely reacting to the idea that such actions don't make one 'like Hitler'. That's why I specified WW2 corporate activity. That was specifically support for Hitler. You mention Pinochet, how about Sadam..a long time ally of 'the west', fortified by the very people who later demonised him. My point was that one shouldn't presume less 'hitler-esque' behaviour because the participants are in an (alleged) democracy

I see exactly where you are coming from. But that is what I see Lucas trying to communicate within the movies about losing democracy. I also think that the Jedi (and the deleted scenes Senate committee) as being those who are willing to defend democracy against the (Bush/Nixon-like) incursions of power - so it seems anathematical for me to think that they would accept such from Palpatine. Palpatine is supposed to be trusted because of his appearance of being open-handed, above-board. Any action counter to that image would put him under scrutiny. It should be noted, also, that the Jedi are aware that the office of Palpatine is surrounded by the dark side - so that a secretive cabal leading to Palpatine's office being behind the clone army should heighten the concern about the clone army.

 

The Jedi have more than enough information. For them not to know something isn't right with that army, and not see the connection to Dooku and the CIS, they would have to be braindead. It's just not really even debatable, these characters are written in completely illogical ways.

 

If it's not debatable, why are so many people debating it?

 

There are people here who will defend anything

 

Just as there are people here who will attack anything.

But we should probably get back to identifying notable (perceived) plot holes or inconsistencies.

 

You asked the question

 

But why assume that the Jedi didn't investigate, though? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Moreover, even if the Jedi themselves did not investigate, that doesn't mean that might not have deferred to a Senate committee. I'm not saying your assumption is wrong, but nothing about it is right either.

I mean, I could also conclude that Leia didn't care at all about Alderaan's destruction since there's no evidence in the films to the contrary, but I would only do that if I didn't like her. Again, in this case, there's no proof that she mourned Alderaan and so my assumption wouldn't be incorrect -- nothing in the films disproves it. But I'm still basing my opinion on an absence of evidence.

Thus, I could say that she's completely heartless and that, based on this, she's only manipulating Han and Luke because they're good pilots/Jedi. Again, nothing in the films disproves this.

See -- that's in essence what you are doing. You have decided that, because an investigation isn't shown onscreen, that no investigation occurred and thus the Jedi are stupid. And while that is certainly your right, it doesn't make for a very convincing argument.

I think it is similar -- Anakin's is just worse because it is on a larger scale (although I would argue Anakin's actions have more mitigating factors). Because while Anakin is reacting to the possible danger to Padmé (and perhaps the children's) life, he has had visions in the past that have proven correct and thus has every reason to worry. Also, while Luke knows that Han is in Jabba's hands, he is currently untouched in hibernation and hasn't been harmed. There's no reason that Luke is forced to rescue Han right away. He's unharmed in a hibernation state and Luke would have a better chance to save him if he recruited more people. Acting right when Luke does is not his only option since Han can remain in animation for an extended period of time. When they rescue Han, for example, he has hibernation sickness but appears otherwise unharmed. In fact, it might have been better to wait until the Empire had been taken down so that the Rebellion would have more resources to devote to Han's rescue. For Anakin, though, it's different -- he has a deadline (the birth). And Palpatine is the only one who has proposed any sort of solution.

Additionally, you yourself note that Luke's actions are excessive. Many people die for Han's life -- which is pretty similar to what Anakin does --> place the life of someone he cares about over many others.

Plus, don't forget, that such things as child slaves do exist. Anakin himself was one -- he was a slave to the Hutts when he was only three years old. And the Jedi children -- while they certainly were innocent -- were armed. Whereas any slaves aboard Jabba's barge would not have been.

And it's important to note that Anakin never intended to serve Palpatine. And his actions also helped to end the clone wars more quickly and thus save civilians lives.

You misunderstand. You are asserting that since we never see any investigation, that no investigation occurred. Well, the same is true for Luke then -- Luke never investigated and never even questioned Leia as to whether there were any slaves on board before he blew Jabba's barge up. This is using your criteria. Why wouldn't he ask? Well, I'd imagine it would be because he didn't care.

Not necessarily. Digging deeper could just cause them to make the wrong conclusions. Or, if it is a Senate committee that investigates, they may not discover the truth behind it. Plus, when they are talking about the developments in ROTS, that refers strictly to Palpatine. The clone army would implicate Dooku at worst, but there's nothing really linking Palpatine's involvement. Thus, they'd have no reason to bring it up then. Additionally, I think you have to consider how abrupt the clones actions were. One minute, they were fighting side by side and the next, they are gunning the Jedi down. And these are people with whom the Jedi have been working with for three years. The suddenness would catch anyone off guard.

The Jedi don't know that this is thanks to the Sith. And they also don't know that the Sith don't want a one-sided slaughter. Nor do they know they want a long a costly war. Nor can the Jedi watch the films and see the final pan over to Palpatine's face when Mace and Yoda talk about the Sith. In TPM, Palpatine only became Chancellor due to Padmé's vote of confidence -- an action made possible because she escaped both the Trade Federation and (most importantly) Darth Maul -- the Sith apprentice. In AOTC, furthermore, Palpatine only gains power through legal action of the Senate.

Don't forget, though, that they only figured it out when the answer was, literally staring them in the face and they were in a secure location. You also can't forget that destroying the Horcruxes was their primary (and really...only) mission. Harry and company answered to no one and had no other obligations besides destroying the Horcruxes. They were not on the front lines fighting against Voldemort for the majority of the story. Additionally, this ignores the fact that I (and a huge percentage of the fandom) had figured out that Harry was a Horcrux long before Harry did. Harry had to be told through Snape's memory. He never worked it out on his own. But fans who read the books easily pieced this together. There was a ton of circumstantial evidence and, given that the audience hears the story from Harry's point of view, we knew what he did only. It's much easier to figure things out as a member of the audience than as a character.

Kamino could contact the Republic -- but they didn't and showed no intention of. Something which, if Dooku did delete the file, he was aware of. Particularly since Sifo Dyas was dead. Plus, the films never indicate when Dooku left the Jedi. It could have been quite recently, it could have been long ago -- we don't know. That he left a long time ago is an assumption on your part. Additionally, Dooku's attempts to kill Padmé are due to Nute Gunray's requests -- and Obi-Wan hears this as the explanation for why Senator Amidala is being targeted.

Plus, there's no way for the Jedi to be sure that Dooku is the who erased the file. There's no evidence directly linking him to the file's deletion. At most, the Jedi have Jango's involvement with Dooku to kill Padmé, but, again -- that's not going to be enough to dissuade the Senate from using the clones.

And sabotaging the clone facilities? I think that would be particularly unwise. If he Republic doesn't find the clone army, it will remain inert. But attacking people whose job it is to make armies seems foolhardy. He risks making enemies of people he should surely want to avoid.

Plus there is the issue of motive. What does Dooku gain from having the Separatists fight the clone army? Without the clone army, Dooku could easily overrun the Republic, attack the Jedi Temple, and install himself as leader with little to no opposition. Logically, it's untenable.

Yeah, but here's the thing -- Padmé never had Sifo Dyas place a massive order for a clone army with her. She would have no reason to remember the man -- she probably never even met him. Whereas with Sifo Dyas, the Kaminoans have been building a clone army for him for the better part of a decade. And yet, in all that time, they never reached out to try to contact him or the Jedi Temple. They don't even realize he is dead. That's quite a difference. The Kaminoans have every reason to care, but they don't because -- as Dex notes, all they care about is money.

And the Kaminoans thought that Sifo-Dyas was still a leading member of the Jedi Council. To me, this indicates that, at most, the Kaminoans had one conversation with "him" and were done. Plus, if you talk to someone over the phone, you can still tell if they are male of female. If anything, I think the films imply they never met him, considering how little they concern themselves with him.

Of course clients can visit. But it seems clear that no one has and that the Kaminoans have made no effort to reach out and see if anyone is even still interested. But my point is simply this -- if the Kaminoans never met Sifo-Dyas face to face and were paid in cash (or an equivalent method), then it's going to be extremely difficult to root out any information. And all of this is not only possible, it's probable.

Exactly! Exactly. The Jedi work for a nation. Thus, if they are going to go off and fight in a war, it only makes sense that someone else will be appointed to handle the investigation. There's an entire government structure in place. You don't send people fighting on the front lines out to investigate when you have a bureaucracy that can handle it. Plus, Obi-Wan thought that Sifo-Dyas was killed before, but it is never confirmed in the film -- it is ambiguous. So they can't be sure that Sifo Dyas didn't order it. Or didn't have a middleman (perhaps Tyranus) place the order in his name after he was dead.

The senate isn't certain to uncover the facts of the army, particularly if Palpatine gets some of his goons on the committee to misdirect them. It's not like it would be difficult. The Senate has a vested interest in using the clone army. Without the army, they are vulnerable to the Separatists and trying to raise and coordinate the armies of tens of thousands of worlds and species is unfeasible in three years time.

But their intention in that scene was only ever to arrest him and have the Senate decide his fate. Mace says as much when they go to arrest him. And there's no indication that the Jedi didn't think the clones might be a part of it. But they may not have realized the suddenness with which it would strike. After all, to kill the Jedi, Palpatine would need to be sure that the Senate would go along with him.

The Jedi don't KNOW that the clone army was ordered under a false name. Plus, when the Jedi learn that Palpatine is a Sith, they go to take him out of power -- and this is significant because Palpatine is one of the few people who can actually order the clones at this point.

I wouldn't say it's an idiot plot any more than the plot of ANH is -- with Tarkin destroying Alderaan before confirming the Rebellion is on Dantooine and then Leia leading him right to Rebellion when she knows they are being tracked (and when she has no way of knowing if a weakness can be found or exploited right at that moment).

 

I'll try to make this a bit shorter as these posts have gotten way too long.
Why I think the Jedi didn't investigate.
1) There is ZERO evidence for it. Sure that doesn't disprove it but absence of evidence CAN be evidence of absence. For example, is Superman around in the SW galaxy? There is no evidence that he exists but no specific evidence that he doesn't, so I can just assume he is there right?
2) If the Jedi DID investigate further then they WOULD know that the Clone Army was ordered under a false name. AotC gives several pieces of evidence that point to this. So to assume that Sifo-Dyas really DID order the army requires you to ignore or overwrite what the movie says. And if we just go by the films, as you said, then this assumption is not logical.
3) Based upon these further investigations the Jedi would know enough to treat the clones with some caution and they certainly wouldn't trust them. Beyond what they already know. But they show no such concern in RotS and they are taken by total surprise when the clones turn on them. Given what they would know, that behavior doesn't speak highly of the Jedi's intellect.
4) It is simpler. Imagining an investigation leads to lots more questions that are never answered.
You imagine a whole lot of things, that the senate investigated, no proof of that. That there were a lot of obstacles, like the Kamino people never meeting with "Sifo-Dyas", the money being untraceable, all of which again there is no evidence for.
And if we being to imagine that it really was Sifo-Dyas then it leads to even more questions, like why did he do that, was he also a sith, did Dooku/Palpatine trick him?
In short, it gets even messier than the Jedi not doing anything.
5) You say that I should imagine things between the films but you then put limitations on that. Like the Kamino people never meeting Sifo-Dyas, the Jedi let the senate handle the investigation, despite them showing some concern about it at the end of AotC.
In short it seems that I should only imagine a very specific set of events.
6) Lastly, if a film maker wants to create a specific impression but doesn't say or show things that support that impression then he or she must accept that the audience might not get that impression.
If Lucas wanted the audience to know that the Jedi did investigate things, then show that in the film.
If you don't then you have to accept that the audience might think that no investigation happened.

Given Lucas comment about Sifo-Dyas being explained in RotS I assume that Lucas did intend to have some stuff in the movie about him. But he later changed his mind. So AotC seemed to be made with an intended follow up in the next film.

I saw the film and what happened and what didn't happen and I based my opinion on the Jedi on that.
I didn't come in with a presupposition that the Jedi were dumb, I conclude the Jedi were dumb on what they said and did IN the film, or what they didn't do in some cases.

If it was just this event then perhaps I could cut them some slack but the Jedi have made very dumb choices several times prior to this. Like their stupid tactic on Geonosis, not sending more than two Jedi to deal with Maul, not giving evidence to the senate in the matter of the TF declaring war on the republic and so on. In this case a couple of lines would be enough, like Obi-Wan saying "Jango Fett was working for Dooku and yet he was the template for the clone army, do you think there might be a connection?" But no one says anything, it is as if they aren't even aware of this connection.

Also, what I am doing is simple, I am taking the movie for what actually happens, not what I imagine happen. Since no investigations are ever shown, mentioned, before or after and the Jedi are totally unaware that the clone army is not to be trusted. Then the simplest option is to conclude that what wasn't shown to happen, didn't actually happen.

Scale tend to be important when judging how bad events are. Killing one person is murder, killing many people is mass murder, killing everyone of a certain group is genocide. All are bad but not equally bad.

This isn't something that Luke would know until he has already started with the plan to free Han.
And simply because Han is encased NOW, what about tomorrow? Also, you have the rebels to consider, Luke and the others are still a part of them and they can't be away for too long. Add to that, Luke isn't the only one who is involved here. Leia, Chewie and Lando all want to get Han out. If they feel Luke is taking too long they might act on their own. Also, Luke has a vow to return to Yoda, so again he doesn't have the luxury of time.
And to leave him be until after the empire has been defeated? How long would that take? Ten years?
Luke didn't know about the DS2 or the plan until he came to that meeting. And how would Luke know he would live to the end of that war?
Plus, since ESB ended with Lando and Chewie going off to save Han, RotJ pretty much has to start with that.

I saw no weapons on the younglings Anakin killed in the council chamber or where ever that was.
Also, slaves are never armed? How do you know this? Many times in our past, slaves have actually carried weapons. The Clones are slaves and they are very much armed.

Using my criteria Luke blew up the barge and he seemingly didn't care that there might be non-combatants on it. That is the simple approach and it is not a plot hole.

But if I am to assume things based on the movies then I have no reasons to assume that they came to the wrong conclusions. Based on what is said in AotC, Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army and a very simple investigation by the Jedi would confirm this to them. To assume otherwise I have to invent a lot of things that I have no evidence for.

The Clone army is VERY relevant when it comes to Palpatine because he has the highest authority over them. This the Jedi know. They also know that the clones will obey ANY order without question.
So if they plan to act against Palpatine then the Clone Army is VITALLY important. Because Palpatine can order the clones to kill the jedi and the jedi would not be able to counter such an order.
If you add to that, possible sith involvement with the army, then it becomes an even bigger reason to mention them and take precautions.

You were talking about what the audience knows "it's only clear to the audience that Dooku is behind the army but not exactly what he intends to do with it".
The audience can figure out all the things I've mentioned. And what the audience knows is very relevant here because what we are talking about is what the audience thinks happens between films.
Since it is strongly implied in AotC that the Sith are behind the army and Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with, if the audience imagines an investigation then they could very well imagine that said investigation would turn up some evidence that supports that. Beyond what the jedi already knows.

First, how would Dooku know that the Kamino people wouldn't contact the republic? The simplest answer is if he was the one who told them this when he placed the order. Otherwise he wouldn't know.
Second, we know that Dooku was the one who hired Jango and this was almost ten years ago and by then he was using his Sith name of Tyrannus. Since Yoda was able to sense the dark side in Dooku I doubt very much he stayed there for several years after he turned.
Third, yes Dooku tries to kill Padme as a favor to Nute. But as I said, he could kill her AFTER she has spoken to the senate, that is what she had come to Coruscant to do. Dooku would know that with her death, the army bill would pass and the republic would get an army. If he wanted a quick victory, he would want to avoid that. Esp if he knows about the clone army that is being made.
Fourth, if Dooku only knows about the army but didn't order it, then someone else has to be involved, someone with a lot of money, far more than what a Jedi could afford. This someone is most likely alive and knows about the clone army. This someone is very likely someone in the senate and as soon as the republic passes the army bill then clone army can then be used.

If Sifo-Dyas really was dead when the order was placed, and there is no reason to think otherwise, then since the deleting is most likely connected with the army then Dooku is the only candidate.
Remember I am assuming things happening based on the films. With Sifo-Dyas gone, Dooku is the only logical suspect that I can imagine.

A few hidden bombs would not show his involvement. And you are talking about someone who plans to attack the whole republic and wage war. He obviously doesn't worry about making enemies.
Or better yet, why doesn't he grab them? If the Kamino people are so insular as you say then he can just show up as a Jedi and take them. They would not know he is no longer a Jedi. Or he could go there some years before and tell them the order is cancelled. But he did none of that, he knew about the army for a long time and yet he did nothing to stop it and just when the republic needed it, it saved the day and stopped Dooku. As I said, very fishy.

If the Kamino people only care about money then a face to face meeting would be no different from a phone conversation. They would not care either way. So that is no argument. The Kamino people being insular also is no evidence that they didn't meet "Sifo-Dyas". That they keep to themselves indicate that they don't travel much, not that people don't visit them. Since Obi-Wans visit was something they expected it is clear that they have had other visitors before. Also, if money matters to them, just one phone conversation would not be enough. They would demand some money upfront and then "Sifo-Dyas" would have to call again. Here it is simpler if "Sifo-Dyas" came to visit and had lots of money with him. This would make the money hard to trace, as you mentioned before.
Lastly, Lama SU did ask about Sifo-Dyas, so he seemed to care to some extent.

It is just an assumption, it is neither more or less probable that the alternatives. That "Sifo-Dyas" really came there and talked to them and looked at their facilities. Perhaps he had a big bag of money with his to start the project quickly. Or any number of other possibilities.

And here is the rub, if the movie had actually shown some of this, we wouldn't have to imagine all this various options, we would know what happened. That is the problem with a total lack of evidence.

Again, the Jedi investigated lots of things in AotC without having the senate do things for them.
And why would the senate know? You keep saying that the Jedi wouldn't tell the senate about this until they got solid evidence. Then if so, the Jedi are the ones that would do the digging.
But they can reach out for help, like Bail. Tell him what they know, like Sifo-Dyas NOT ordering the army and have him help them. Simple and efficient.

You said before that you used only the films when trying to imagine what happens. Thus you can't ignore what Obi-Wan says without some kind of evidence that speaks against it. And other info in the film only confirm what Obi-Wan said, like Jango now knowing Sifo-Dyas and he was instead hired by Dooku. Assuming that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army requires us to ignore movie evidence and that isn't logical.

In the scene when Mace says "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi" they are talking about moving against Palpatine AND the senate. Also Palptine has almost unlimited power since AotC, he doesn't need the senates ok to order the clones to kill the Jedi. Something the Jedi would be aware of but don't mention.

If we imagine things based on the movie then they do KNOW this. Palpatine could have ordered the clone army against them in the earlier scene above. But then the clone army was apparently not a concern. Even now they seem to not worry about it because they don't tell the jedi out in the field to be on their guard.

[/QUOTE]

RE: Tarkin, he wanted two things, the location of the rebel base and an effective demonstration.
If Leia was able to lie in the face of such destruction then using the DS in this manner is pointless.
And he felt that Dantooine was too remote to make an effective demonstration. So if she did lie, he looses nothing with destroying Alderaan as it is clear he can't make her talk that way. And he still has the demonstration he wants.


Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Congratulations, you defeated the plothole strawman yet again. In other words, absence of evidence constitutes evidence... of a so-called plot hole. Not evidence of the plot-specific absence in question, according to the generally understood meaning of the term. Absence of evidence is still not evidence of absence, ill-fated diversionary tactics aside.

Another less than skillful attempt to change the subject, in this case to cover up a contradiction. "It was set up deliberately as a mystery that requires answers" would seem to refer to the question of the creation of the clone army. But now you seem to have decided to talk about "Jedi didn't investigate" instead. Is it in fact your contention that the question of whether or not the Jedi investigated was "set up deliberately as a mystery that requires answers"? The foregone conclusion refers to the assumption that Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with the clone army. There is as much "evidence" that Sifo-Dyas was involved as there is "evidence" that he was not involved - i.e. there is no indication one way or the other.

I ( and others ) already did, and it didn't have any effect. See previous posts, and keep in mind that precisely none of the "points" raised by the anti-Sifo crowd ( for lack of a better term ) are anything new. They've been growing moldy for about a decade now and were seen for what they are long ago. There is really nothing revolutionary or compelling about them.

This reply, in all too typical fashion, simply ignores what I said completely. Once again, this "contingency order" business is from the EU, not the films or Lucas. So it seems that you intend to use the EU as evidence when you think it helps make the Jedi look stupid, while somehow at the same time ignoring any EU evidence which contradicts you. In the same EU continuity, the Jedi did investigate and Sifo-Dyas was manipulated by Plagueis into ordering the clone army.

Including Qui-Gon!

 

There is no plot hole strawman, calling it that is the strawman

 

The clue is in the term: Plot Hole. Let me give you a quick peak at what Wikipedia says;
"Aplot hole, orplothole, a play on the word "pothole," is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow oflogic established by the story'splot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome."

So, just deciding - by yourself - what constitutes a plot-hole does not define what a plot-hole is.

No change of subject. It is exactly the same arguemtn I have made from the beginning. Here you appear to contradict yourself though. Because if there is no evidence that the Sith are involved then the final scenes (where Order 66 is carried out) would be an even more apparent plot-hole (ie, how in the Force's name did the clone army become the tool of the Sith? What was Sidious' plan?)

The majority of the arguments here are based around the fact that it is clear to the audience that the Sith are really behind the clone army, so that the end result is no contradiction; you alone seem perplexed as to how this is taken from the movies. Of course, if you had bothered to address the question (having been asked...four times is it now?) instead of repeatedly ignoring it the position you take here might be more convincing. I'll ask it again; what do you propose the dialogue is intended to convey to the audience? Let me specifiy the dialogue; Where Obi-Wan says he is under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was dead by the time the Clone Army was ordered; Where Jango says he has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, and that he was approached to be the template of the clone army by a man named Tyrranus; Where Sidious welcomes Dooku back to Coruscant as Tyrranus (and that Jango has run to Dooku after being discovered by Obi-wan). Is there no purpose to the dialogue, in your opinion?

Ermm no. The Order (Order 66) is clearly a pre-determined order relating to specific contingent conditions (it is actually a trading term). The use of the term 'contingency order' makes no difference to the substance of the argument. If you prefer, just ignore the term 'contingency order' and replace with 'Order 66' and then respond to the substance of the question, rather than pretending that obfuscation through semantics is an argument.

 

Mod edit: Attack the posts, not the poster.

 

Just another couple of points to make regarding your 'argument' here. Firstly, and as a continuation of an ongoing theme within your responses, you split up the argument and treat separate instances as being separate arguments. Because of this tactic you miss the/bypass the structure of the argument and then try and pass off separate arguments as somehow illogical - where in fact there is only concomitance. For instance here you decry that the absence of evidence is not the same as plot-specific absence

...so you make this argument and then... reference the very point that the absence of evidence is evidence of

So...it seems you are aware of what I am talking about - you have here the very plot-specific absence you claim I am not talking about. So, what was your purpose in this?

You go on to claim I am making an argument that I clearly do not accept. You quote me as saying;

and suggest tha tby that I mean to;

Following with;

I can see where the confusion might lie....if you hadn't read the rest of the post in which I clearly state that, with regards to it not being a plot hole (as it was argued by Samuel Vimes) and that the Jedi were just "clueless" or "dimwitted");

"What is put forward there actually matches(explicitly) what we are shown in the films, the reason that I believe it is a plot-line* is because I don't think that is what the story is supposed to be."

(*where I obviously mean plot-hole)


How did you miss that? I have advised you previously on the error of part-quoting (quote mining). This can be seen as borderline trolling, or goading. Could you please stick to arguing the points actually made?

 

The inconsistency that jumps out is Leia remembering her mother .
I don't see much plot hole in Star Wars. I think the big thing is there is so much going on and only so much time to tell it all.

 

I agree. Arawn_Fenn, I've warned you before about this relentless needling for the sake of it, and misquoting other posters is not acceptable.

I've had about enough of this headache of a thread. Unless it gets back on track - discussing actual plot holes & inconsistencies in the Star Wars films, rather than endless back & forth over semantics - I'm locking it.

 

You've clearly chosen to continue to ignore the actual content of my responses.

I am not trying to define what a plot hole is, nor am I discussing the definition of a plot hole. Therefore presenting me with definitions of a plot hole serves no purpose. This is pretty much the textbook definition of a strawman. I don't know who you think is arguing the definition of a plot hole here, but whoever it is, it isn't me. Feel free to provide quotes showing where I "decided what constitutes a plot hole".

What is being avoided here is any engagement with what I was actually arguing: the fact that absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence. But that proposition cannot be defeated on its own merits.

The question of who ordered the clone army, equivalently the question of whether or not Sifo-Dyas was involved in the clone army, and the question of whether or not the Jedi investigated are two distinct subjects. Thus, when you say "It was set up deliberately as a mystery that requires answers" in a clear reference to the question of who ordered the clone army, and then my response refers to a foregone conclusion regarding that same question, and you for some reason choose to act as if my response was about the question of the Jedi investigation, you have either lost track of the conversation or are changing the subject. But once again this was explained in my last post and you are simply ignoring me. So, once again, here is the main point: your position on the issue of the clones contains something of an implicit contradiction. You claim that it was set up as a mystery, one that Lucas was supposed to provide the answers to in ROTS, yet you also tend to treat your preferred resolution to the mystery as a foregone conclusion to which all the evidence allegedly points. So where's the mystery, and why would Lucas have had to clear anything up?

If true, then those arguments would be somewhat pointless. Prior to seeing ROTS, the audience only knows this because of being spoonfed information that the Jedi do not have, and the truth is that the "arguments here" have largely been based around the assumption that the Jedi behaved stupidly, not the question of audience knowledge. It is the behavior of the Jedi that is being indicted here, not that of the audience.

From the POV of the Jedi, there is no evidence that the Sith are involved prior to Order 66, and it is the Jedi POV that has been the meaningful issue here.

No. I spoke of Sifo's involvement, not Sith involvement. These things are not mutually exclusive. I said that there was as much evidence for Sifo's involvement as there was for his non-involvement.