main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Is Luke stronger than Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TheDisharmony, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Luke was using the darkside there. He let his rage about Vader saying he would turn Leia over to the darkside take over. Vader did not see that coming from Luke and it caught him off guard.
     
  2. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Luke holding back, Luke using the dark side, Vader conflicted so holding back ... All of this is speculation. All we really have to go on is what we see happen on the screen - Luke defeats Vader.
     
    Darth Dnej likes this.
  3. Beautiful_Disaster

    Beautiful_Disaster Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 12, 2005

    But Vader never wanted to kill Luke, and his allegiance to the Emperor could have been the reason he didn't kill Palpatine sooner (JMO, I believe Vader probably could have killed Palpatine, though.)
    I think Vader and Luke were fairly evenly matched strengthwise. They didn't want to kill each other. I'm pretty sure Vader realized Palpatine wanted Luke to kill him, so I think he knew there was a possibility it might happen. I always believed Luke was the only one who could defeat Vader because he was his son, and that was why Palpatine knew Luke could destroy them.
    Vader probably had better control, though.
     
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  4. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 12, 2013
    Probably could have killed him by catching him off guard or defeating him outright? I'm sure he could have done the former many times since the first time Sidious revealed his true identity to Anakin in ROTS. Beat him outright? I don't think Vader was mobile enough in the suit or would have had an answer for the force lightning.
     
    Beautiful_Disaster likes this.
  5. Darth Vader's Chest Plate

    Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Would the force lightning not have created issues with his prosthetic limbs and breathing apparatus? Therefoe increasing Vader's injury potential to a higher level than that of a normal person.
     
  6. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2013
    As a pure duelist, even before Vader mentions Leia, Luke was outclassing Vader. Luke scored the first blow, bouncing Vader down the steps to the lower levels of the throne room, while Luke went the course of the dule virtually untouched. Luke had next to no onscreen training with the lightsaber, so I have to imagine he improved his skills through experience, constantly on the run, and making use of his weapon with the Rebellion. Vader's dueling skills, on the other hand, would appear to have deteriorated somewhat, as he rarely had opportunity to make use of them.

    As far as their potential force ability goes, I recall George Lucas commenting that Vader's ability to feel the force had been reduced to being comparable to Darth Maul's. While I don't think Luke had as much insight into what he could accomplish with the force, I do think he had pulled ahead of Vader in how strongly he was able to feel the force by the time of return of the jedi. One thing a lot of people don't take into consideration is that jedi and dark lords often use the force to boost their physical strength. Yoda did it whenever he was caught in a duel. Anakin was definitely doing it as he fought Dooku aboard the invisible hand, if the ROTS novelization is any indication, as Dooku was considering how strong Anakin had become as they fought each other. So Vader's physical size doesn't count for much even in a duel, if his endurance for calling on the force can't match Luke's.
     
    kainee likes this.
  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Vader is also wearing heavy armor. While that is mostly beneficial (it does protect him well as seen in TESB), it would probably hamper his movements somewhat and cause him to tire quicker than someone wearing nothing but rags.

    The supposed weakening of his force power seems to be typical Lucas nonsense however. OT Vaders force powers surpass those of Anakin in the direct comparison.

     
  8. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    In the OT, I don't think anyone is near a match for Palpatine in terms of the force. When he realises he can't turn him, Palpy turns Luke into a grease spot, begging for mercy, in seconds. Vader, with his knowledge and experience, may have dealt with the lightning a bit better, but he would've succumbed eventually. Only together, using their human strengths, could Anakin and Luke defeat the Emperor. IMO that's ultimately the whole point of SW.
     
    darth ladnar likes this.
  9. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 12, 2013
    I don't think Luke and Vader/Anakin could have defeated the Emperor outright. Vader/Anakin simply had a change of heart and tossed the Emperor down a shaft when his back was turned and he wasn't paying attention.
     
  10. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Yeah, well, Palpy knocked his own master off while he was asleep, so what goes around... :p

    But seriously... I agree that in a face to face confrontation they couldn't defeat him. But the fact that Vader was given the opportunity to do what he did was the result of Luke's resoluteness and courage. This is what finally turned Vader back. It was all about their human qualities, not any special powers that either of them had. The human defeating the superhuman. The ordinary overcoming the extraordinary through strength of will and character. This is the essence of SW...
     
    kainee likes this.
  11. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 12, 2013
    I would use the word "kill" maybe instead of defeat. Most people here could probably "defeat" Mike Tyson if he were standing out on a high balcony with his back turned and his mind occupied and they had a free opportunity to simply push him off. :)
     
  12. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    I'd say Palpatine was defeated before he was killed though. When he'd lost both his potential apprentices his cause was ultimately lost.

    As for Iron Mike... I'd say if he put himself in that position during a fight against two formidable adversaries, he'd deserve to be defeated. Palpy just plain old underestimated the effect Luke could have on Vader and paid that price. That's misjudgment in combat. That equals defeat.
     
  13. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 12, 2013
    I don't think he really needed an apprentice after ROTS. And if he did, he could have gotten someone other than a Skywalker.
     
  14. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    He didn't need one to rule the galaxy, but he needed one to continue the Sith lineage. With two Skywalkers at large and against him, Palpy was always going to have his challanges. As we saw... ;)
     
    darth ladnar likes this.
  15. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 12, 2013
    Dadgummit, DD. :) Neither Luke nor Vader were a challenge. Vader betrayed the Emperor. He didn't defeat him. If Sidious had disposed of Vader after Order 66 was accomplished and done away with the whole apprentice thing, he would still be ruling the galaxy.
     
  16. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    But, Rachel, dagnabbit, the reason he didn't just off Anakin in the first place was symptomatic of his own weakness and vulnerability. He absolutely had to have the strongest cat in the whole Jedi Order under his control. See power. Must have power. When Luke came onto the radar, he absolutely positively had to have him. This is what led to his demise, trying to have it all. This is the ultimate demise of all the Sith. Palpatine really defeated himself I'd say, via the Skywalker boys.
     
    kainee and darth ladnar like this.
  17. Kenobi098

    Kenobi098 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 8, 2013
    Vaders cyborg components(especially the suit which is basically a mobile iron lung) actually would most likely make him even more vulnerable to the force lightning. he may have been able to deflect some with the force but without his lightsaber(he could block it like Obi-wan did in AOTC) he had no chance against it.
     
  18. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Unless you think a toaster is more vulnerable to electricity than a human being you don't really have an argument. You can put built in failsaves against strong currents into any machine. That said Palps force lightning is strong enough to fry anyone to death who can't defend himself (because he lost her lightsaber or so).

    You forget that while Palps was distracted Vader was both tired from his fight against Luke and injured. Vader was capable of defeating Palpatine as per RotJ he just wanted to minimize risk (Emperor is a very strong and dangerous opponent) and make sure the Empire don't crumble after he himself replaces the Emperor. Vader didn't want to rule over a pile of rubble.
     
  19. jedi hulk

    jedi hulk Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2013
    I personally think Luke was the new breed of Jedi where light and dark powers weren't so specifically divided. There were shades of grey there as long as the power used was controlled. E.G Luke force chokes the Gammorean guards in Jabba's palace.

    So in that... I think Luke was definitely stronger than Vader... in ROTJ he was the stronger of the 2 even before Vader pushed him into anger...
     
  20. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Maybe. But to be honest I always thought they were about the same level in RotJ. Vader would've put up a better fight if he weren't so conflicted.

    In TESB Luke already had all the relevant knowledge and skills (Yoda didn't teach him anything later) but he lacked the experience and self esteem to really master his powers.

    So I think the mental state of a person plays a huge role in a duel.
     
  21. White Lightsaber

    White Lightsaber Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Vader's armour was moved by servomotors. It is reasonable to believe these were powerful enough to make the weight of the armour irrelevant.
     
  22. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    He's not wearing a full body armor. He's actually only wearing shinguards, a breast plate, codpiece, helmet and neck protection piece. His tights, arms and a part of his torso is not covered by armor. So, probably not powered. When he moves you also don't hear any hydraulics or the like.

    This on the other hand is how a powered fantasy armor looks like:

    [​IMG]

    It encapsules the entire body, something Vader's armor doesn't do.
     
  23. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2013
    I'm not sure I agree that everything Lucas said about Vader losing power after his disfigurement was untrue.
    I don't recall Vader ever making any greater displays of force ability after his disfigurement than he did before it.

    What I do know, is that before his disfigurement, Vader claimed that he could kill Palpy. After his disfigurement,
    he never even tried to. If he still had the power to do so, it's in the very nature of the sith apprentice to carry out that objective.
    I think he needed Luke in order to challenge Palpy. Together, I have little doubt that they could kill Palpy. If they couldn't,
    it would have made Vader's entire objective for the final two Star Wars movies pointless. Which I don't think it was.
     
  24. Maizel

    Maizel Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2013
    I think Anakin was more powerful than Luke in their respective primes, by virtue of the former's traditional training. After his dismemberment, Luke's potential was ofcourse, far greater, hence why Palpatine wanted to replace Darth Vader.

    Though, during the span of time as seen in IV -VI, I always have believed Vader to be stronger overall. I think it's some years into the EU that Luke really starts cracking.
     
    kainee likes this.
  25. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Force choking from kilometers distance, telepathy from kilometers distance, throwing multiple objects at the same time, etc. Reading a trained Jedi's thoughts in RotJ.

    Anakin on the other hand stumbled into an energy cage as late as RotS. How impressive ... not.

    There is no loss of power between RotS and ANH, actually it's the opposite. Vader obviously got far more powerful though he may have lost some saber skill due to his injuries.

    There's so much talk about Anakin's peak in RotS but you hardly see it. He may have won against second-rate villain Dooku but he lost badly to Obi-Wan (the guy he defeated in ANH I might add). And then there is the fact that he is far less intelligent than Vader.

    RotS Vader had no darkside training whatsoever. He still needed to learn a lot of techniques from his master and also how to rule an empire. He had to build a power base, manipulate dignitaries and so on. Only after Tarkin was gone he was ready to strike imo.