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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Diplomatic Firestorm

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Skywalker8921, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    And the only point you've ever made on these boards is to walk around with a superiority complex and a vast sanctimonious attitude.

    I would rather spout sound bytes than come off as a constant ***.
     
  2. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    With respect to Snowden, I would say that there are three separate issues that need to be addressed.

    1) His revelation of domestic information gathering programs
    2) His revelation of foreign information gathering programs
    3) His general actions accessing and revealing classified information

    In that respect, I would argue that category 1 might conceivably make him a whistleblower, contingent upon the question of whether or not what he revealed was illegal or not.

    I think his actions in category 2 are completely unjustified and potentially could constitute either treason (giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the US) or outright espionage. There was nothing illegal about the NSA's foreign intelligence gathering operations (including hacking of targets in other countries, like China), and the revelation of those programs was illegal.

    His actions in category 3 (specifically seeking out a position for the purpose of compromising classified information) again suggest that his behavior is closer to espionage than to whistleblowing.

    I don't work with classified information, but I do work with restricted information in my job. (I support the FAA, and the information I have access to is covered by the Privacy Act, requiring a "Position of Public Trust" background check instead of a security clearance - form SF-85P instead of SF-86.) We deal with numerous restrictions (often similar to classified information).

    One such example is that anyone who has access to our server room has to have undergone a background check (the same SF-85P), simply because there is PII (Personally Identifying Information, as defined by the Privacy Act) stored in that room. That includes the cleaning staff, the building engineers, and our HR facilities manager. The same principle would apply in a facility with classified information. (Even the janitorial staff who vacuum the floors would need a security clearance commiserate with the classification of the information in the facility.) In my 7 years in my current job, I have never had any reason or need to access PII. I simply maintain the servers that run the databases that the PII is stored on, and yet because of that I need to have the Position of Public Trust background check.

    Every year, we are required to go through several forms of security and ethics training that repeatedly emphasize how we are to handle restricted and/or classified information (if we encounter it). It also emphasizes the proper procedures for reporting unethical or illegal actions. I see no evidence that Snowden even tried to report any of the programs he revealed through the proper channels before deciding to violate his agreements to keep that information confidential. If anything, the fact that he explicitly sought out a position with the goal of revealing the information indicates that he isn't a whistleblower, but instead was explicitly seeking to compromise classified information.

    He deserves the indictment that has already been handed down against him, and to defend himself in court, where he has the right to the presumption of innocence (although that is greatly weakened by his own direct public admissions). If he can convince a jury of his peers that his violations of the law were justified, then so be it, but that is a very difficult case to make.
     
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  3. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Snowden has at least created a discussion about it all though, regardless of his reasons for doing what he did.


    Is it known for certain Snowden is still in Moscow airport? Apparently there have been no sightings of him, BBC news had guys wandering around the airport looking for him and they weren't sure where he was.
    His bid for asylum in Ecuador may takes weeks so I've heard, can he leave the airport and just go and hide in the embassy like Assange has done or would he be stopped by Russian authorities?
     
  4. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    The reason I'm hesitant to jump on him for point 1, Kimball, is that I'm not sure (as are none of us) what the objective of the intelligence gathering exercise was. If it's looking for Tsarnaev-style homeground threats or networks, and it's had success, then arguably it is justified and as I've mentioned at least twice the "who" in the data won't come out until they've narrowed the field down to "areas of interest".

    It's easy to fall back on suspicion of government, but honestly, people who think the government will use their mined FB/mobile phone/email data to go all Enemy of the State on them needs to get their hand of their **** and come back to reality.
     
  5. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    If you read Smith v. Maryland, you'll see that part of the justification was related to the limited capabilities of pen registers---at the time, they only were able to capture the numbers that were dialed on a specific phone line. Modern phone metadata is substantially more revealing, especially if it includes cell tower connection logs. I don't think a warrantless cellphone location data case has come before the Supreme Court yet (correct me if I'm wrong). If there is one, I would expect the court to rule that some metadata (e.g. phone numbers, per Smith v. Maryland) is still collectible without a warrant, but that other data (e.g. a user's location) is not.

    However, with regards to the NSA, there's an additional issue involved: scale. Smith v. Maryland dealt with a investigation where there was a single pen register attached to a specific phone line. The NSA is receiving all phone records from Verizon (and likely other providers). The difference in scope should be enough to give a court pause in blindly applying the Smith v. Maryland precedent.

    I believe it's been stated that the NSA has to go back to the FISA court and get a warrant if they want to query that phone record database, but that raises even further questions. It implies that the government interprets the Fourth Amendment to mean that capture and storage of US persons' data is not considered a search or seizure, and that the data is only considered to have been "collected" (a very doublespeaky euphemism) when an analyst looks at it. In other words, it's Schrodinger's Fourth Amendment.

    DNI Clapper's analogy that "collection of U.S. persons' data would mean taking the book off the shelf and opening it up and reading it." basically confirms that's how they view things. I don't think that interpretation has yet been tested in public court. But it should be.
     
  6. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's also suspicion less -- I forget whether Smith involved reasonable suspicion or probable cause but there was surely something there which made it a reasonable search. Similarly all the stuff KK me ruined at the end of that post involves things the courts have rules people have nobexiecyestikvs of privacy.

    Now it's fair to note the distinction between security intelligence and criminal investigation but while the former is not subject to exclusion bc it's not used at trial I should think that the fourth was still operative, just at a lower level given the state need there.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.
     
  7. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    The key holding in Smith v. Maryland was that because you voluntarily surrendered the information (the phone number) to a third party (the phone company), there was no reasonable expectation of privacy in that information. From the ruling:
    The limited capabilities mentioned in Smith (marked in blue above) had to do with the test from Katz, specifying that it is limited from collecting the content of the calls (marked above in red), differentiating Smith from Katz. The other metadata involving cell phones (including cell tower locations) falls more on the Smith side of the line, than the Katz side, because that data is voluntarily given to the phone company and doesn't include the content of the calls.
     
  8. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    As it turns out, Snowden was a regular at Arstechnica's IRC chat for some years. I can't post the transcripts due to language, but the picture it paints of Snowden is that of an arrogant and egocentric bully:

    Ars Technica
     
  9. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Skimming his posts, I don't really see that. And whether or not you agree with what he did, I fail to see how his supposed character flaws are relevant.
     
  10. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    You don't see him shouting down people who disagree with him? Okay.

    Character flaws are sort of a big deal when a guy's being lauded for being 'heroic' when his actions consist of leaking classified information and then skipping the country to avoid being tried for what he did. If he really wanted to do something he'd stay here and force the government to take him to court, like Daniel Ellsberg did when he leaked the Pentagon Papers.
     
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  11. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Muhammad Ali stayed to challenge the draft while many others fled the country instead. Facing a lengthy prison term or even the death penalty is admirable, but I don't blame those who'd rather not.

    I personally don't think of Snowden as a "hero." He leaked information that was mostly already known and probably wasn't worth risking his life over.
     
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  12. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I don't think of him as a hero, either, obviously. :p

    And weirdly we agree on the mostly already known part.
     
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  13. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
  14. McLaren

    McLaren Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 1, 2002
    Had you also brought up, years ago, that the NSA was collecting (or at least attempting to collect) everything everywhere and storing it for all eternity, someone might have given you a tinfoil hat. ;)

    Much of our privacy/anonymity is based on a somewhat flawed assumption that it's difficult to put all the pieces together. However, now that the NSA has gone and created the greatest trove of personal data in human history, it is their responsibility to protect it.

    If they can't protect it, should it even exist?
     
  15. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    To be fair...a single PPT presentation about the program isn't "they can't protect it". A better approximation would be if we had the same cable-by-cable outlay that the initial Wikileaks leak had-IE the actual comparisons and graph searching the NSA is doing with this program. Which we don't.
     
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  16. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Now it comes out that the US has apparently been spying on Italy, Greece, and Japan, among others? Sheesh. I wouldn't be surprised if this blows up in Obama's face.
     
  17. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Ender's entire argument is based on Snowden's "character flaws."
     
  18. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    We spy on everyone, and many of them spy on us.
     
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  19. JangoMike

    JangoMike Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2003

    Thats how it works.....everyone spies on each other.....
     
  20. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    My problem is that the government is supposed to spy on other countries for us, not including us. I am not naive, but this amount of data collection is not needed. 9/11 was seen coming and the Bush admin ignored the warnings before this NSA crap was set up. It is not needed to stop terrorists.
     
  21. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Your government is supposed to bug your allies?
     
  22. JangoMike

    JangoMike Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2003

    Exactly....i always refer to a Readers Digest article that basically says, with all the spying and new laws past, were really not much safer. The things that have worked, are the things that have always worked..."good ol fashioned gumshow work"


    http://www.rd.com/true-stories/inspiring/how-weve-changed-911-ten-years-later/
     
  23. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    I recall Jello posting earlier in this thread that they are not interested in reading my Facebook posts. Well then, why is that data being collected? Zuckerberg lied when he said he wa snot cooperating with the NSA. If they are not interested in my mundane existence then they need not collect that data.
     
  24. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    The NSA and CIA and others were created to spy on other countries.

    Of course. And it's not like they don't try to spy on us too. I think we jailed either a UK or Israeli spy in the Pentagon a few years ago, for one example.
     
  25. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Did you read any of my posts about how this analysis works, or did you skim by it as you galloped that moral high horse to the finish line?
     
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