Discussion What is your greatest fear about Episode VII?

No-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-nono-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no!

Now that I've finished venting, Jedi really need to ban the no-attachments rule. Yesterday. Seriously, Han and Leia were already in a relationship. What happens if Luke goes up to Han and says "Hey, you can't date my sister anymore"? That's right: Han's going to deck him. The biggest reasons for banning the no-attachments rule? A) Love saved the galaxy–Luke's for Anakin. B) Any Jedi Luke recruits will already be set in their ways; adults. They'll probably be either married or in a serious relationship. In other words, Luke won't find anyone to join his order if he tells them "You have to divorce your wife, break up with your girlfriend, so you can come with me." And then, there's the fact that the PT Jedi (save a few like Obi-Wan, for example) were stuck-up, stodgy, foolish idiots who couldn't see what was in front of their own faces because they were too attached (thus breaking their own rule!) to a set of rules. No, that needs to be over.

 

There's no more Sith, so the real source of the problem is taken care of. The Jedi rules aren't just some arbitrary things that some pompous Jedi made up because it seemed neato. It's a natural extension of being attuned to the force. Luke will not change this. He will see the wisdom of it.

 

Source? We don't know what the Jedi used to be like before the movies- unless we invoke the EU- which has the idea that married Jedi were perfectly OK until one faction banned marriage.

 

Of course the first thing they'd do after toppling an authoritarian regime is to slap authoritarian restrictions on their Jedi club, they'd see the wisdom of it! I bet they'll see the wisdom of taking babies to indoctrinate for decades so they can act like creepy weirdos too!

So much wisdom everywhere, don't know what to do with all of it! What's that? A clone-slave army, sure thing, my magic 8-ball wisdom says it checks out!

 

Do you feel better now?

Leia is free to not be a Jedi. As for the rest.....I think you've read too many EU books. I don't know who came up with this foolishness about Luke and Leia having kids, but I bet it wasn't George Lucas. It was some two bit, cut rate, hackjob trying to put their mark on Star Wars.

 

Another non-canon ill thought out EU subplot that will be forgotten in short order once Luke doesn't toss the Jedi code out the window.

 

The two bit, cut rate, hackjob foolishness of a married woman having children? How foolish, Star Wars isn't about icky family cooties!

Oh, here's a fear I got. I fear that we're going to end up with a cast of stuffy, pseudo-mystical @$$holes infesting the screen instead of actual characters.

 

Better than Jedi dynasties fragmented because of clannishness and split loyalties.

 

Timothy Zahn was the first to write a novel with Leia & Han being married and Leia being pregnant- but it must be said that back then, Lucas exerted a lot more control over the EU- making suggestions, banning ideas he didn't approve of, etc.

 

a) Yes I do.

b) Leia is free not to be a Jedi. Yes. But she's there. Luke's going to want to repopulate the Jedi Order ASAP, and she's the first person he's going to want to work on. "Foolishness" about Luke and Leia having kids? How is having kids foolish? And BTW, most of the EU written when they had kids was written pre-AOTC, so none of the authors even knew about that very stupid no-attachments rule. Also, did you notice that it wasn't mentioned in TPM? Yes? Because at that point George was just making it up as he went along. You can clearly see from the way he wrote ROTJ that he fully intended attachment, love, whatever you want to call it, to be a good thing. Also, "two bit, cut rate, hackjob"? Really, you're devolving to personal insults to the author?

Also, I'm interested on your commentary on what I said about the Jedi being attached to their rules, thus breaking them in the process? What do you think of that? Agree or disagree?

 

Bottom line. It aint canon.

It's simple....he doesn't institute the no marriage/no kids rule until after they get some younglings. If you start as a youngling, the rule is in effect from then on.

 

1. Take children under the age of 5 from their parents.
2. Indoctrinate them into absolute belief in Jedi philosophy.
3. Disallow them from marrying, having children, or having any control over their lives.
4. ???
5. WISDOM

 

It is canon, though, at least until we have confirmation that ST will deviate from the EU (which I have no doubts it will). But nonetheless, whether EU is flattened to a very enjoyable but non-canon pancake or not, the Star Wars saga has always been the Skywalker story. You need a Skywalker to continue the Skywalker saga. And Hamill and Fisher are simply too old to be the main characters of the movie, plus Mark himself saying he'd be playing a passing-the-torch character. Thus, the only Skywalker we can have is a child of Luke and/or Leia. It is an almost guaranteed fact that one of them will have a child and be married. Whether the other Jedi will be, I don't know. Even if it never mentions another Jedi having a wife/husband or child, the rule will still be just a bad memory as long as Leia or Luke have kids. And I'll be so happy.

Okay, so that's favoritism? Adults get to get married, and then the younglings are told "that's a no-no"? That's hypocrisy on the biggest level.

 

Here are some "Aftermath" fears I have *basicly fears not directly associated with the quality of the film itself but more of the afterwards of it*
1. *If the EU is used* A big giant "Credit War". Basicly some EU writers saying "Well I created this character and these events which were in the film but George is getting full story/character credit for something he didn't create so I should be the one getting the credit" and its just one big giant war with us debating who should get the credit George or the writers who made the stuff *cause I'm assuming George isn't responsible for the creation of every single event and character in the EU* or maybe even Arndt might get involved because we might not know which ideas were his and which were Lucas. It gunna get confusing and its probably going to make these boards not fun at all.
2. Some really creepy incest ship becoming popular online. I HATE incest ships and I really dont want to see one get popular with the fangirls. I'm already forced to deal with Thorki and I dont want to have to deal with another
3. The inevitable "PT vs OT vs ST" war which nobody will like. I doubt we're going to see some glorious unity where it just ends up being "Pt vs OT/ST"
4. No good memes to come out from this movie *or the memes are basicly bashing the film*
5. A new "Franchise War". I guess it used to be Star Wars vs Star Trek but I can seriously see it becoming Star Wars vs Marvel since these two will be coming out near eachother and are both MAJOR franchises. Being a Marvelite and a Star Wars fan I dont want to have to choose sides........because TBH....I'll choose Marvel cause I've been with them longer *runs off and hides*
6. *If EU is not used* A normal "Credit War" with us all debating who gets the credit/blame if SW7 is good/bad. Was it Lucas? Was it Abrams? Was it Arndt/writers? Was it the cast? Was it Kathleen? And on and on and on. I hate these kind of debates

 

They have got to be focused on their jobs to an extreme degree. No time for kids or wifey. A Jedi craves not these things.

 

See, I don't agree. In the years between ROTJ to the ST, there would be relative peace (probably), so they'd have plenty of times to go around, being Jedi, and still raise a family–and it'd be even easier if they were training said family as Jedi as well.

 

But what better way to get younglings... than to have some kids of his own? Or his sister, the other Obvious Jedi Candidate, has some kids of HER own?

Yoda: "The Force runs strong in your family! Pass on what you have learned!"

That line right there is permission from Yoda to go ahead & have a family.

Need more evidence? How about how the heroes decided to deal with the Skywalker twins in ROTS? These two children of Anakin, children they're pretty sure will be strong with the Force, and instead of training them from infancy in whatever hidey-hole Obi-Wan & Yoda decide on, they... give them families. Bail offers to adopt Leia, he's got a great cover built in since it's public knowledge they've wanted to adopt a girl. Yoda decides to send Luke to his family on Tatooine.

That's the Jedi recognizing they messed up. Time to try something different. Let 'em have families... let 'em have attachments... stubborn-old-man Yoda tries to put a little of the 'no attachment' spin on his advice in ESB, which is really more of a "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" thing when he says "If you honor what they fight for? Yes", but his deathbed advice to Luke says otherwise.

Yoda: "The Force runs strong in your family! Pass on what you have learned!"

That's all that is required. The old Jedi 'no families' rule is gone; best way to rejuvenate the Jedi is by taking a family line strong in the Force and growing that family.

We know from the OT that Jedi training need not be a decades-long endeavor... Luke learns what he needs to in an extremely short time, so he should have plenty of time for finding students, training students, and maybe producing some students of his own via a family if he so chooses. And Leia should likewise be able to learn fairly quickly how to be a Jedi, and not have to give up her relationship, delay having children, or delay political duties much if that's the way it goes.

So to bring it back on topic... one of my greatest fears about Episode VII is that the filmmakers will think more like you do, and we'll be stuck with no new Skywalkers or Solos, and the Jedi will be just like the PT Jedi as a whole--annoying and disappointing--instead of what we once imagined them to be back when the very first movie mentioned the Jedi Knights, full of possibility and without any foolish "no families" rule.

 

Revanfan, I don't think I understood what you were getting at here about the Jedi being attached to their rules about non-attachment and thus breaking them. Sorry about that. It's not a bad point. But you are thinking in absolutes here to come up with this little paradox (which, btw, is how the Sith think.) You are saying either you have zero attachment, or open the floodgates to all kinds of attachment which will create all sorts of complications and problems. So the wisest course would be to have as little attachment as possible while still maintaining the integrity of the organization. Every organization has rules that are necessary for it to do what it's supposed to do. Even the Sith had rules (like the rule of two).

 

Aren't attachments the very thing Luke craved -- salvation for his father and keeping his friends safe?
The way I see it, nothing else mattered to Luke. Trying to save his friends by breaking his training with Yoda in ESB and trying to convert Vader back to "good" was his top (only) priority.

 

That I had not considered.

 

Agreed. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have the Jedi be as utterly stagnant and dogmatic as they were in the PT. That time is over; as you said, Toon, both Yoda and Obi-Wan realized their mistakes and moved on. They fixed it. And Yoda's line of the Force being strong in Luke's family is perhaps the most supportive evidence of all that Luke will have a family.

 

The decision to face Vader in TESB was a bad decision and he paid for it. And in ROTJ he had a lot more to think about than his own father and friends, but the fate of the whole galaxy that hung in the balance.

 

I hope they do think like me so we can avoid a lot of bad Skywalker soap opera stuff and move on. We can have Jedi protagonists who aren't related. It all depends on what they decide. They might feel obliged to go along with the EU precedent at least on this one issue.

 

Just because they're going to have a family won't make it a soap opera. How about a normal family dynamic, no dramatic I-hate-my-parents or What-do-I-do-about-the-boy/girl-I-like stuff? That would make me very happy indeed.