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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Abortion

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Katana_Geldar, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    *fixed to illustrate logic flaw.
     
  2. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    No, of course not. What's your point?
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Thanks for this info. :)

    Anything on a female equivalent for Viagra?

    And Merk, that logic flaw illustration is awesome. =D=
     
  4. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999

    Women can have sex for pleasure without the pill. That's silly. The pill is a poison which causes a woman's reproductive system to stop functioning properly. Viagra enables a man's reproductive system to function properly. A man with erectile dysfunction will have trouble having intercourse. Viagra will allow him to have intercourse or have it more easily, and he will be able to conceive a child. Its primary purpose is to restore proper functioning to the reproductive system. "Facilitating pleasurable sex" is not its only purpose, although it does facilitate a man having pleasurable intercourse. The pill does nothing to facilitate sex or make it more pleasurable - in fact, it may decrease sex drive in many cases (and increase it in others - everyone is different). The pill's purpose is to prevent the creation of other human beings so that people may have the sex (of the same facility and quality, essentially) but without the increased responsibility of caring for children.

    There are lots of drugs that are covered but don't necessarily treat life-threatening conditions or severe pain. Oxybutinin prevents urinary incontinence - why should my insurance costs go up because a few dudes piss their pants? Terbinafine treats onychomycosis - why should my insurance costs go up because a few dudes have thick yellow toenails? Corticosteroids are used to treat eczema - why should my insurance costs go up because a few dudes have scaly hands?

    The "pill" (combined oral progesterone/estrogen pill) is sometimes used for medically indicated purposes, like endometriosis, irregular cycles, severe cramping, irregular bleeding, acne, and so forth. We use poisons like methrotrexate and doxorubicin to treat autoimmune diseases and cancer - but on a healthy person, they are poison. They're pretty much poison for people with the conditions too (although the net effects are beneficial).

    Viagra was invented to enable men to have sex at all, but the pill was invented to prevent human beings from existing. The two have two very different purposes for their creation.
     
    VanishingReality likes this.
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    What is the other purpose for Viagra other than enabling men to have sex? I'm not following.

    And am I to guess that since you are opposed to women using birth control at all, your solution for women who do not want to conceive a child, who shouldn't conceive a child because it might be dangerous for her, or who are financially incapable of caring for a child, would be for that woman to not have sex at all?

    If that is the case, then why the hell should I be concerned about ensuring that men never, ever be put in a situation in which they can't have sex?

    Do you really see no irony or double standard in ensuring that men can always have sex but at the same time ensuring that non-Michelle-Duggar-friendly women must be limited?

    And don't tell me that's "nature's" limitation because I'm going to call bull****. That same argument can be used against antibiotics because deadly diseases are natural selection.

    Dangers of the pill aside (and I agree with you to a point there but all medications have bad side effects and dangers in some people), there is no reason to refuse coverage because it interferes with a "natural" process. Death is as much a "natural" process as birth.
     
  6. Asterix_of_Gaul

    Asterix_of_Gaul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    I would say that if viagra is going to be covered...then so should birth control. However....I don't think viagra should be covered :p (at least through government intervention).

    I think it's fine for private insurance companies to cover whatever they want--give the consumer choice. However, I also hate that those same companies are so linked with employment in the USA. I think that's stupid, to be frank.

    Like I said before--birth control isn't something people are owed. It has a price and someone needs to pay it. It's not fair to make other people pay it because your conscious told you so. That doesn't mean I'm against other people paying for it if they want to, or insurance companies covering it. Again, I'm all for helping people in poor standing get financial access to it (especially since I really don't like abortion). But I also think it's narrow-minded to think government intervention is the best/only way especially given the potential long-term drawbacks of such action.
     
  7. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    @Obi-Zahn,
    My insurance allows me to purchase a poison that prevents my repoductive system from working properly.

    But again, continue...
     
  8. Asterix_of_Gaul

    Asterix_of_Gaul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007

     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You're consistent and aren't making excuses for the medical necessity of Viagra. I give you credit for that.

    I agree with you about health insurance being tied to employment but that's another debate.
     
  10. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    This is not true. Birth control pills are not a "poison." Do they have negative side effects? Of course (as do all medications). But even in a healthy individual, the birth control pill has benefits. The pills can reduce the risk of ovarian and endometrial cancer and additionally reduce a woman's risk of being hospitalized with pelvic inflammatory disease by up to 50%. It also reduces the risk of anemia. Birth control pills can also affect cholesterol levels with a beneficial effect on blood lipid levels.
     
  11. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    Your insurance company is free to do so. I think it should be free to do so. I don't care. Some insurance companies cover severe mutilation procedures to destroy your reproductive system and make your external genitals cosmetically appear to be of the opposite sex. If they want to do so, then whatever.

    But it doesn't make sex reassignment surgery any less mutilation, or combined oral contraceptives any less poisonous.


    It also increases your risk for embolism, breast cancer, weight gain, and it top it off, it makes you infertile. The fact that it causes infertility is why I would label it poisonous at the dosages at which it is prescribed.
     
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  12. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Poisonous, destuctive, whatever pejorative you wanna apply, but still covered by insurance with nary a quibble.

    Unlike female birth control.
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    All pharmaceuticals have side effects.

    If you are going to label birth control pills as "poisonous", where is your animosity towards every other prescription drug out there? Or is a drug only "poisonous" if it causes temporary infertility? The idea that wanting to have sex without risking pregnancy is the equivalent of drinking arsenic is a bit absurd.

    Or, if you are referring to permanent infertility which might be a side effect for some women, can we label amoxicillin "poisonous" since it causes me to swell up like a balloon and causes my throat to close up, in spite of the number of people who are actually helped by amoxicillin?
     
  14. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999

    Go back and reread my posts. I already touched on double effect and the overall net good in using medications.
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    So you are saying that pregnancy prevention is not an "overall net good," some of us could not disagree with you more, and ultimately the risk/benefit ratio is between a woman and her doctor, just like any other medication. Why is birth control some sort of unique phenomenon here as far as pharmaceuticals go?
     
  16. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Well then, since Viagra and other ED medications have been known to potentially cause heart problems (and in some cases blindness) in some men, then if Women have to get a transvaginal probe stuck in their vagina before getting an abortion then men should have their hearts probed before getting a little blue pill to see, as the commercials go "if their hearts are healthy enough" to have their doctors prescribe them.

    Edit: And OZK, for some women, fertility IS a dysfunction and for some of them, it can be a fatal one.
     
  17. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Actually, there has been research here, but nothing solid yet. Forgive the pun :).

    Peace,

    V-03
     
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  18. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Viagra (Sildenafil) was actually originally developed for the treatment of hypertension (high blood pressure) and angina. Its utility at treating erectile dysfunction was originally seen primarily as a side effect noted during the clinical trials. When those trials showed that it was less effective at treating angina in most cases, Pfizer shifted its focus and got approval for it to be used to treat erectile dysfunction.

    And, because I didn't get the chance to respond earlier:
    The choices you voluntarily make have the ability to weaken your legal rights. For example (as I pointed out earlier), you can choose to sign a non-disclosure agreement, which would therefore weaken your right to free speech.

    Once you have taken an affirmative act towards creating a new life (and even a zygote is a new life, even if you don't consider it to be a human being yet), you have crossed a line that you can't simply say "no takebacks" and walk away from. To use an analogy, when I got my CPR certification many years ago, one of the things that they talked about was how the laws in many states say that once you start giving CPR, you have to be committed to it. You legally need to continue until either the person recovers, medical professionals arrive to take over, or you literally collapse and are unable to continue. By choosing to help administer CPR, you accept the risk that you will have to continue to the point of physical exhaustion and collapse. Your right to just walk away is severely weakened once you take that affirmative act. In the same way, once you have taken an affirmative act (consensual sex) that contains within it the risk of pregnancy, you have created a new life that has to be taken into account.

    Note that my outlined position (which is only a summary, as I didn't have room to go into all details or contingencies) doesn't stop people from using contraceptives in any way. It simply recognizes that there is a period of about 20 weeks* during which there's simply no way for us to definitively settle the question of how to balance the competing rights of the mother and the baby.

    * Pregnancies typically last for 40 weeks as measured from the beginning of a woman's last menstrual cycle, and the 50% survival rate comes into play at about the 24 week mark. Since most women's cycles are approximately 4 weeks in length, they can't usually know if they are pregnant until they are 4 weeks into the pregnancy. That gives a range of about 20 weeks from when a woman finds out that she is pregnant until the baby is viable enough to likely survive on its own, with proper medical care.
     
  19. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    This isn't actually true.

    A dysfunction is a deviation from the normal or expected function. Fertility is the normal or expected function of the reproductive system, and so by definition, fertility itself cannot be a dysfunction.

    What would be more accurate would be to say that for some women, pregnancy can cause other dysfunctions to develop, which can then in turn be fatal.
     
    Asterix_of_Gaul likes this.
  20. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Note that my outlined position (which is only a summary, as I didn't have room to go into all details or contingencies) doesn't stop people from using contraceptives in any way. It simply recognizes that there is a period of about 20 weeks* during which there's simply no way for us to definitively settle the question of how to balance the competing rights of the mother and the baby.

    It also doesn't rule out coitus interruptus. And while you may not like abortion, it doesn't rule out the pill either: Saying a woman has to carry a pregnancy to term is one thing, saying she can't place obstacles between a fertilized egg and her uterine wall is another.
     
  21. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    It's a very similar thing and a large part of why Catholics find contraception horrifically immoral.
     
  22. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    LOL. Have you ever seen the side effects of Humira?

    Humira SubQ


    Does Humira SubQ have side effects?
    The following side effects are associated with Humira SubQ:
    Common side effects of Humira SubQ:
    Bacterial Infection of Blood or Tissues affecting the Whole Body Severe
    Cellulitis Severe
    Acute Infection of the Nose, Throat or Sinus Severe
    Lupus-Like Syndrome Severe
    Fever Severe
    Rash Severe
    Infection Severe
    Extreme Loss of Body Water Severe
    Sinus Irritation and Congestion Less Severe
    Head Pain Less Severe
    Feel Like Throwing Up Less Severe
    Stomach Cramps Less Severe
    Signs and Symptoms at Injection Site Less Severe

    Infrequent side effects of Humira SubQ:
    Multiple Sclerosis Severe
    Cataracts Severe
    Abnormal Increase in Red Blood Cells Severe
    High Blood Pressure Severe
    Extremely High Blood Pressure Severe
    Heart Attack Severe
    Inflammation of the Covering of the Heart or Pericardium Severe
    Fluid in the Covering of the Heart or Pericardium Severe
    Atrial Fibrillation Severe
    Complete Stoppage of the Heart Severe
    Abnormal Heart Rhythm Severe
    Chronic Heart Failure Severe
    Accumulation of Blood in Subdural Space Under Skull Bone Severe
    Formation of Blood Clots in the Leg Veins Severe
    Shingles Severe
    Pneumonia Severe
    Asthma Severe
    Bronchospasm Severe
    Liver Tissue Death Severe
    Gallstones Severe
    Bleeding of the Stomach or Intestines Severe
    Bacterial Infection of the Kidney and Renal Pelvis Severe
    Kidney Stone Severe
    Inflammation of the Bladder Severe
    Urinary Tract Infection Severe
    Feeling Faint Severe
    Flu-Like Symptoms Severe
    Fluid Retention in the Legs, Feet, Arms or Hands Severe
    Fast Heartbeat Severe
    Heart Throbbing or Pounding Severe
    Trouble Breathing Severe
    Chest Pain Severe
    Broken Bone Severe
    Infection caused by a Fungus Severe
    Reactivated Tuberculosis Severe
    A Malignant Pigmented Mole or Tumor Severe
    Malignant Lymphoma Severe
    Breast Cancer Severe
    Tumor of the Skin Severe
    Decreased Function of the Parathyroid Gland Severe
    Increased Antibody Proteins in the Blood Severe
    Accumulation of Ketones from Abnormal Metabolism Severe
    Acquired Decrease of All Cells in the Blood Severe
    Red Lesions of Skin caused by Group A Streptococcus Severe
    Deficiency of Granulocytes a Type of White Blood Cell Severe
    Decreased White Blood Cells Severe
    Acquired Increase of Red Blood Cells Severe
    Escape of Fluid into the Lungs Less Severe
    Inflammation of the Esophagus Less Severe
    Inflammation of the Lining of the Stomach and Intestines Less Severe
    Bloody Urine Less Severe
    Irregular Periods Less Severe
    Bacteria causing an Infection in the Joints Less Severe
    Arthritis Less Severe
    Backache Less Severe
    Muscle Weakness Less Severe
    Pain in Arms or Legs Less Severe
    Cramps Less Severe
    Bone Disease Less Severe
    Involuntary Quivering Less Severe
    Throwing Up Less Severe
    Pelvic Pain Less Severe
    Impaired Wound Healing Less Severe
    Numbness and Tingling Less Severe
    Inflammation of the Lining of a Joint Less Severe
    High Cholesterol Less Severe
    High Amount of Fats in the Blood Less Severe
    Confused Less Severe

    Rare side effects of Humira SubQ:
    Demyelinating Disease Severe
    Guillain-Barre Syndrome Severe
    Sudden Blindness and Pain Upon Moving the Eye Severe
    Relapse of Hepatitis B Infection Symptoms Severe
    Drug Therapy that Worsens or Flares Psoriasis Severe
    Pancreatitis Severe
    Hepatosplenic T-cell Lymphoma Severe
    Worsening of Chronic Heart Failure Severe
    Blood Clot in Lung Severe
    Heart Failure Severe
    Stroke Severe
    Inflammation of Blood Vessels in the Skin Severe
    Blood Clot in a Deep Vein Severe
    Legionnaire's Disease Severe
    Lung Fibrosis Severe
    Appendicitis Severe
    Diverticulitis Severe
    Hole in the Intestine Severe
    Liver Failure Severe
    Inflammation of the Gallbladder Severe
    Erythema Multiforme Severe
    Abnormal Liver Function Tests Severe
    Infection caused by Coccidioides Fungus Severe
    Type of Infection caused by Histoplasmosis Fungus Severe
    Infection caused by Blastomyces Dermatitidis Fungus Severe
    Life Threatening Allergic Reaction Severe
    Giant Hives Severe
    Reaction due to an Allergy Severe
    A Fungal Infection that Occurs Under Certain Circumstances Severe
    Active Tuberculosis Severe
    Sarcoidosis Severe
    Infection caused by a Protozoa Organism Severe
    Malignant Tumor or Cancer Severe
    Leukemia Severe
    Infection caused by the Bacteria Listeria Monocytogenes Severe
    Low Blood Counts due to Bone Marrow Failure Severe
    Decreased Blood Platelets Severe
    Hair Loss
    Less Severe

    And in regards to weight gain, that's usually due to fluid retention and is very little. Likewise, although birth control pills can increase the incidence of some cancers, they also decrease the chance of developing others.

    And the infertility is temporary too, it's important to note.
     
  23. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    If you don't have RA(or a condition for which it is indicated), that drug is a poison too. It's all about the principle of double effect.
     
  24. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Even if you have RA it's poison -- I know rheumatologists who refuse to prescribe it in any and all cases. With side effects like that.

    The point is, that even in healthy people, birth control can have many positive effects (such as reducing the risk of developing some cancers). And it's a choice women need to make with their doctors. But just because you have a problem with people wanting to have sex without producing children (at the moment) doesn't mean that birth control pills are any more "poisonous" than Humira.

    You object to use of birth control on moral grounds. But guess what? I object to war on moral grounds and I still have to suck it up and pay my taxes. Birth control should be mandatorily covered by health insurance. There's no reason not to. It's a drug that produces beneficial effects even in healthy people. And it is up to those people and their doctors to decide whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks.
     
  25. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    It's a very similar thing and a large part of why Catholics find contraception horrifically immoral.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you arguing that not only is preventing a microscopic clump of cells from attaching to a womb where it can grow the same as ripping it from that womb; but so too is wearing a little rubber device on my nether regions?