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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion Does anyone think Darth Vader will *not* be in Episode VII?

Discussion in 'Archive: Disney Era Films' started by MiamiJedi, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. Sith-Mullet

    Sith-Mullet Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2003
    This is Star Wars, not Terminator!!!
     
  2. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Well I just want something new that isn't a rehash of the Sith Lord who wants to control the galaxy. I actually have an idea for an imposter of my own but one who uses the fear of the return of the Sith (not just Vader) to instill terror in the galaxy. This villain would be the follower of a non Force user who wants to discredit Luke's order and eradicate all Force sensitives. The non Force user would be one of the old rebels and would have a not so good history with Palpatine which would be his motivation. Design wise, I just want a villain who is visually striking and one who can take his/her place among the iconic villains of SW.
     
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  3. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    That's one reason I liked Thrawn... he was pretty visually striking (even if a LOT of the art featuring him was pretty weak). Blue skin, blue-black hair, glowing red eyes, and a pristine white Imperial uniform with black boots, a nice big Grand Admiral rank badge (quite similar to Tarkin's Grand Moff badge)... with or without the gold epaulets, it was a striking visual. Of course, it was conceived back when people hadn't paid a whole lot of attention to every frame of the OT, Zahn perhaps didn't know that there were already Imps with white (or off-white) tunics back in the first movie... namely, Yularen, in the briefing room (and seen walking the halls later, with black trousers & a hat). So with THAT information, the GA white uniform isn't QUITE as unique... but still a damn nice image compared to the much-more-common olive, gray, or black uniforms we saw in the OT.

    So I agree... the villain should have a striking image if there's any hope of achieving 'iconic' status. Just another Force-user in black robes with a red saber ain't gonna cut it, nor is aping Vader's armor. That's one big reason for 'the suit' being in VII is a bad idea... it's lazy. "Eh, we don't wanna attempt to create a NEW iconic villain look for VII, so we'll just re-use the one from III-VI. That'll buy us a couple years to maybe figure something out for VIII and IX, right?"
     
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  4. MiamiJedi

    MiamiJedi Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2013

    Exactly! Some are acting as if Episode 7 is an "act 1" like it will be its own separate trilogy which instead of building upon what has happened in the previous episodes.
    It is Episode 7 not Episode I of a new saga.
    Lucas had said in the past that there would be no Episodes 7-9 because the story was finished with Episode 6. But now everything has been turned on its head.
    Episode VII in order to be Episode VII must and will continue the tale that began in Episode I.
    There are threads that tie all the previous episodes together and I am sure by examining them, we can find where Episode VII will lead.
    I think Palpatine will be the primary villain. They will make a hero out of Boba Fett. Luke will have a beard.
    And Darth Vader will somehow, some way return...
    Perhaps the story entails that the Solo kids will uncover Palpy is not so dead after all, and go on a Frodo type quest to uncover the secret Darth Plagueis hinted at, because only a resurrected (gasp!) Darth Vader (Anakin) can stop him!
    We don't know.
    We simply don't know.
     
  5. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    The EU had a leader like this, I forget his name. He was a new republic leader who looked like a horse, I believe.

    It would definitely make sense for there to be a political stream that distrusted force users. Problem is though, this is not an original idea either. It's in the EU and it's also very similar to X-Men and the comic book world, in general, the distrust in superpowered beings. I don't mind it as a plot element or background element in the new ST, but I think it's a pretty bland antagonist compared to the Sith, or something related to the darkside. It risks making the ST less important than the previous two trilogies.

    Another huge problem with this approach, in my opinion, is that it ignores the main threat of the previous two trilogies: the force user's struggle with dark side impulses.

    Also, lightsaber battles are a key element which must be maintained. Where will these come from and how will they not seem watered down when the antagonist is not a force user? We've seen a droid wielding multiple blades at this point, so we can't go there again either on your logic.
     
  6. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    The problem with this critique is it can be made about any of the other essentials of Star Wars. Han, Leia, Luke, and the droids again? Chewbacca, again? Jedi's again? The Republic again? Jedi robes again? Space ships again? Coruscant again? Aliens again? Skywalkers and Solos, again? Opening scroll, again? Star Wars again?

    I think if you like any of these elements, then the idea that Sith or dark robes or the darkside are in anyway problematic or lazy is just completely misunderstanding and altering the Star Wars universe.

    MODified: "Edit" is a great way to add last minute thoughts to a post!

    I think when you have characters as cool as the ones from the OT, you shouldn't change much. Newness for newness sake is empty when it's good old times you crave. It's especially empty when the newness is unrelated to the essential struggles of this universe.

    Using an old, lazy axiom: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I will never be bored with Vader (any version) or the Sith.
     
  7. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Luke represents overcoming that.
     
  8. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    How does that affect other force users. It doesn't. It's a never-ending struggle, symbolic of the struggle of good and evil.
     
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  9. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    The GIGANTIC difference is... Vader's dead. The Rebel Alliance, the full name, is the "Alliance to Restore the Republic", so "Republic again?" is out. Han, Leia, Luke, the droids, Chewie, all (theoretically) still alive--so it makes sense for them to still be in it. Jedi? Of course, Luke's a Jedi, Leia's probably a Jedi, so, yeah: more Jedi. But they'll be NEW Jedi, not the same old Jedi of old--and HOPEFULLY not even in "Jedi robes" all the time. Enough "Jedi who look like moisture farmers". Spaceships, Coruscant, aliens, Skywalkers, Solos, opening scrolls, etc--all still make sense.

    But Vader?

    He's dead.

    And even as a suit, as a design for a 'new' villain, it's tired & old. Han, Leia, Luke--they're not the new heroes. The new heroes are among what we see in the Casting Call: the late-teens women, the early-20s man, the late-20s man, the 30-ish intellectual, the 40-ish military guy... the 70-ish guy might be a mentor, but won't be the New Action Hero of the ST. Any of those could also be villains, of course, but the HEROES are definitely among 'em--and while they may share some genes & personality traits & job descriptions as Han, Leia, and/or Luke, they're not the same characters, and won't exactly look the same, either.

    If the new villain is Sith, black robes & a red saber are probably inevitable... but aren't you TIRED of that? Dooku was mildly refreshing in that he wore dark brown... how about a Sith that's more flash, less "oooo black & red, ooooo, I'm evil, get it?" Maybe he wields a yellow saber. Maybe we're not supposed to believe he's the villain right away--kinda like Dooku, only handled better, and without the "red blade" giveaway (that really wasn't a giveaway for Dooku, since he'd more than proven he WAS the villain before he ever lit the saber)

    One reason Jedi Luke from ROTJ is still so damn good is because he's NOT just wearing "Obi-Wan clothes" now that he's a Jedi Knight. He's in BLACK! Something DIFFERENT for the Jedi. Even his dad, in AOTC/ROTS, was mostly in dark BROWN, very little black... most other Jedi dressed like they shopped from the same Anchorhead & Fitch catalog that old Ben Kenobi got his Tatooine Disguise at back in ANH.

    The only thing in there that makes any sense is Luke having a beard, which is by no means a 'must'.

    Finding the threads in 1-6 that will continue in 7 is stretching things... this is not The Hobbit, a story written while Tolkien was working on a much larger work that was related to it. It's Star Wars, which Lucas capped over 30 years ago at 6 episodes, chucking out most of the ideas for the sequels & wrapping it all up at least 3 episodes early with VI.

    Palpatine being the primary villain is a terrible idea. So is making Boba Fett into a hero; I'm all for him surviving the Sarlacc, but geez, the guy needs to be retired by now, sitting on a pile of money earned from his successful career.

    And Vader being resurrected to deal with Palpatine (or Plagueis) is even MORE terrible! Instead of these new heroes, we'll bring back Anakin! HE'LL get to be the Big Damn Hero because of reasons!

    All that NEEDS to run thru the entire episodic saga is the Skywalker legacy. And it should easily have that.
     
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  10. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I was talking specifically about good people struggling with the Dark Side. That's very different from Darksiders in general.
     
  11. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    No offense, but this all sounds like surface or stylistic complaints. You seem mainly concerned with new colors for the sake of new colors. You like Dooku because he wore brown?

    Am I tired of villains dressed in black? Not really. Why would I be? That's a staple of most popular genre entertainment. Anyway, I don't want to debate style for the sake of style, because that's not really the point here. The point is retaining the essence of Star Wars. I notice you mention new heroes. So did I. I called them Skywalkers and Solos. Which is what they are likely to be -- so are your new heroes old and tired because they're the same old family, new generation? Why not a new family? Answer, because these films will be sequels to the Skywalker-Solo saga. If you think that's tired and old, then you're really just arguing against a sequel trilogy.

    As for Vader's armor, for me it's more than just a style thing. Although I do think the look is a must. But it could also be a key plot point. The new villain, whoever they are, use it as a way to lure the Skywalker-Solos into a trap, or to confuse and terrorize the republic. The villain might have their own unique look as well, but the armor could be used in an interesting way. It's also a symbol that the darkside is not completely gone. Defeating the Emperor surely did not end the darkside.

    Critiquing Vader's armor as tired and old, when it's really an iconic sort of image you'd be crazy to lose, is like saying Batman or Superman shouldn't look like Batman and Superman, or Spiderman should wear purple just for the sake of change. Clearly, Vader's armor can be modernized, which would make it fresh, just as Batman's suit has been altered. If the suit is altered, the way it's altered should also be meaningful. Which it can.
     
  12. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    What is the interest and tension created in a struggle that doesn't result in an actual darksider? That's no struggle at all.
     
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Huh? Again, I said that darksiders are ok but lightsiders struggling with the dark side is not ok.
     
  14. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Darth Vader IS the Skywalker legacy. His children and grandchildren will be in the next trilogy. How do they deal with the knowledge that their grandfather was Darth Vader or The Chosen One? How would you feel if you found out Josef Mengele was your grandfather? It could be a giant psychological aspect to this next story. A possible angle, if you will. "How do I live up to the Skywalker legacy' (with which Vader is prominent), is another possible angle.

    All of this is opinion...it means absolutely nothing without a story context, bad idea or not. And anything you and I say hear will make no difference to the outcome, so stop saying 'the only thing that makes any sense is...', because if you think about it, that's pretty lame. YOU HAVE NO IDEA.
     
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  15. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    A simple, yet elegant nuance.
     
  16. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Huh?
     
  17. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    I like it, because you can have a spectrum of Jedi, instead of just all good or all bad. The grey matter, so to speak. If I understand your idea.
     
  18. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Critiquing Vader's armor as tired or old (which I didn't; I said using it for a new villain is tired & old--or, more accurately, lazy) isn't the same as saying Bats or Supes shouldn't look like Bats or Supes.

    It's saying someone new shouldn't go around dressed as Jor-El, calling himself Jor-El, because Jor-El is dead (or Zod, or Two-Face, or... just pick a dead character).

    They have the opportunity to give us new villains here, but it seems like many want Vader--the suit or resurrected--or Palpatine or Plagueis back as villains in the ST... those are just too predictable. I don't want the villains to be predictable.
     
  19. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    All I want is a great story. Probably you, too. If the story's great, it won't matter.
     
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  20. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Attention, Usual Suspects: I was in the process of attempting to merge posts, but realized that it would be futile on this particular page. Please, please, please, please use our EDIT function rather than doubling/stacking multiple posts in a row. Since, I am quite convinced the people present are more than aware of our endless requests to comply, all future discussion of double posting will take place in your own personal "editing" class in UR. Thanks. You are all lovely. Carry on.
     
  21. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Nah. What I was saying is that I'm ok with darksiders who were always darksiders but I'm not ok with lightsiders strugging with and/or turning/falling to the Dark Side.
     
  22. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    I also want a great story... I just don't see that happening with Vader being back as anything other than a "dark side cave vision" or nightmare or, from a certain POV, Anakin's spirit.
     
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  23. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    For the next trilogy, correct? Been there, done that, kind of thing.
     
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  24. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    You got it (assuming that by "next trilogy" you mean the ST).
     
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  25. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Sorry, I really don't understand this. Conflict is essential to the success of a film. External and internal. Taking away a character's struggle with the dark side in SW is leaving out a huge part of their personal journey.
     
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