ST Who's The Baddie?

And there is exactly why they would want Sith in the ST, the scale of it and how bloody awesome it would look. I never meant that all the people fighting the Sith would be Jedi. There is a VAST universe out there, and just like in the EU novels, the Sith were still out there in great numbers. Just "far, far, away". Plenty of soldiers/droids to go around as well. My thoughts always go to the SWTOR trailers, because imo those are EXACTLY what I would want out of a new SW movie. They nailed it with the CGI trailers, too bad the game didn't. Remember, there will also be two offshoot movies. Maybe one of them is an Old Republic era one heh? I seriously don't think Disney will stop with five new movies. There is too much potential for a Old Republic era movie.

Balance is Equality. Two sides being equal, like a scale. Balance = "to be equal or proportionate to". And yes, your post had contradictions, at least imo. But hey, I think more like Sith think, in absolutes.

 

I'm not sure if you're being serious, but I do like how everyone assumes that, by ROTJ, Sidious hadn't changed his mind about the Rule of Two. Reasons why he (or the new writing team) might change his mind:

1) His trust in Anakin in the OT is obviously waning, since he's open to turning Luke to the darkside. Turning Luke amounts to training him, which amounts to Luke being a Sith apprentice. That would be three Sith at the same time, and Sidious has no problem with it. If Sidious was as concerned with the Rule of Two as the naive Jedi and some fans here, then he would have lectured Vader in ESB about the impossibility of breaking the rule instead of agreeing that Luke could be "turned" and that he could become a powerful ally.

2) By the time of the OT, Sidious has such a tight control over his power base, that he might view the Rule of Two as unnecessary. He has thousands of loyal stormtroopers, Imperial Guardsmen, Vader, and who knows what else to protect him from rogue Sith. In this position of confidence, he might have had no problem training a few extra apprentices or darkside assassins.

3) In case Vader was ever killed or turned on him, he would want to have some trained replacements ready. The Rule of Two is often interpreted to mean something extreme like only two darkside users at a time, or something like that. In actual practice, the Rule would be more messy. There would be other darkside potentials trained, or at least identified. There might even be some apprentices leftover 30 years after ROTJ ready to reveal themselves, or vie for power.

Edit: PS, I'm all for huge messy dangerous chaotic battles with hundreds or Sith and Jedi. Not a problem for me the viewer.

 

This is all fine but remember Vader was supposed to destroy the Sith. It is implied that is what he does at the end of ROTJ. If they go back on that, it will make his turn back to the good side of the force and sacrifice just seem worthless. I pray they don't do that.

 

You seem to be an expert on the prophecy. Even the Jedi didn't understand it.

Bringing balance to the force and destroying the Sith forever are not necessarily the same things.

 

Balance is not equality, it's not like a scale. Not when it comes to the Force, anyways. In Star Wars, balance is harmony. Life isn't static, it grows and evolves. It just needs to be kept in harmony.

And what contradictions?

In Episode I, the Jedi expected there would be a Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force... while at the same time believing the Sith had been extinct for a thousand years. Only in Episode III, after 3 years of galactic war, do many Jedi seem to have leapt to the conclusion that "balance means no Sith," but when Obi-wan says that, Yoda immediately responds that that could be wrong.

 

The only thing I'm an expert on is knowing that none of us are experts.

 

I believe the influence of the Sith was exaggerated. The galaxy was imbalanced imo not because of two Sith (they existed before anyways) but rather by the mights imperial war apparatus stomping on any dissension. Without the stormtroopers or guys like Tarkin, the two Sith would have been powerless.

Obi-Wan on the death star: "It was as if a million voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."

We have also seen poverty, criminals and native cultures being terrorized by the Empire. The Empire wasn't a nice place to live in. It was out of balance. And why? Because the Imperials made it so.

 

Uh, wasn't the Force out of balance before AOTC at the least?

MACE: Remember Obi-Wan, if the prophecy is true your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.

 

Well I'll have to disagree with you on point # 1. I think Sidious in ROTJ was counting on Luke Defeating his Father and becoming his apprentice. Hence the whole " Good! Hate has made you poweful. Now Strike him down and take your father's place at my side" line by Sidious. It was only when Luke threw away his light sabre and denied him that Sidious decided to kill him. So I think that Sidious always meant to keep the rule of two in place only as Him and Luke Skywalker. He never intended for Vader to continue as his apprentice.

 

Wrong. Vader had to convince him in TESB to even consider training Luke as a Sith.

@ CT

In AOTC a war was brewing and I think that could imbalance the force too. War - a great galactic conflict - is the opposite of harmony.

 

Did he have to convince the Emperor? His servants or those that he is manipulating have a way of presenting him with ideas that he greatly desires. He then acts as though it's a new thought and not something he wasn't expecting or wanted.

 

So you are claiming he meant the opposite of what he was saying? With no evidence of it whatsoever?

It makes sense that he wouldn't be all that interested in Luke. Luke is a rebel and his leadership skills are doubtful. Turning him might require more effort than he is worth (and in the end he really wasn't worth the effort).

 

I utterly disagree and find this form of thought contradictory. Balance, I already posted it's definition. Balance = "to be equal or proportionate to" IS like a scale. Harmony is also a form of equality, which is balance.

You said the darkside is imbalance, and lightside is balance, yet the darkside can't be destroyed. So, its a contradiction to even say there was balance. The only way for balance would be to destroy the darkside....not possible. Hence the contradiction.

 

The Sith were responsible for unbalancing the Force to the dark side. Darth Tenebrous' master was the first Sith (in the Rise of the Empire era) to begin that process, and the Sith Lords that followed him continued it, all the way up to Sidious. The Jedi didn't know the Sith were behind this unbalancing until TPM; they only knew that the Force itself had shifted irrecoverably to the dark side over the course of about 200 years.

 

I am claiming that given all that we know about the Emperor now, that there is doubt as to whether Vader convinced the Emperor of anything in that conversation given Palpatine's tactics. The Emperor has a way of having those that serve him or those that he manipulates, into doing or suggesting things that he secretly desires. He also fakes emotions to cover his tracks. For example, just look at the emergency meeting in AOTC and the following Senate speech. It's ripe with others suggesting or doing things that he wants all the while he pretends to be saddened by the entire situation.

As for the Emperor not being interested in Luke Skywalker, that's hard to believe having only seen the OT let alone the PT too. But taking all six films into account, it makes absolutely perfect sense that he would want to turn Luke to the dark side.I don't know why you believe Luke being a rebel would be a turn off given that Sidious has turned Jedi Knights before. This particular rebel, as the Emperor knows, was mentored by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Sidious has a flare for messing with that mans apprentices and or masters. The Emperor also knows that the force is strong in Luke. It would certainly have to be considering he blew up the Death Star. When Anakin Skywalker blew up the Trade Federation ship, Palpatine took immediate notice of him. Like father like son. Also, it's not like pickings aren't slim in the OT when it comes to potential apprentices. As for Luke's leadership skills, it's not like Darth Maul was a cunning war General. But that said, at least Luke Skywalker was a commander in the rebel army.

 

It's not contradictory. And that's the wrong idea of balance when it comes to the Force. Also, harmony is definitely not equality. Harmony means many different components that cooperatively work together. The Rebels in the OT were in harmony with each other... Luke, Han, Leia were very different, but they cooperated and worked together. The Stormtroopers in the OT were equal, all alike and conformed and obedient. When it comes to the Force, balance is harmony. You're thinking of things through a Western lens, when this is more Eastern-inspired.

Yes, the dark side is imbalance, the light side is balance, and the dark side can't be destroyed. But you're assuming something here. The dark side doesn't always imbalance the entire Force itself, usually it just imbalanced individuals, or planets, or regions, or in terrible times the entire galaxy. But it was Tenebrous's master, Tenebrous, Plagueis, and Sidious that managed to imbalance the Force itself. Plagueis and Sidious in particular completely overthrow the Force. What these Sith didwas beyond what may be called "ordinary evil." And until we see Episode 7, I'm now skeptical if Anakin did succeed in returning the Force to balance.

 

The Darth Plagueis novel's explanation for how The Force was unbalanced is supported by a GL interview I read somewhere in these very forums. The same novel suggests that Anakin was concieved to stop Plaguies and Sidious.

I hope this is all relevant to the discussion.

 

Actually, Luke surviving Ep. 7 could be one of those double-reverse "rhyming" fake-outs Lucas sometimes pulled in the PT. Like, you think Luke is dead in Ep. 7 if only cuz of what happened to Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and, biggity bam, Luke's back, baby!

 

Agreed. There appears to be an escalation to some end in the saga. Plagueis and Sidious are this unspeakable evil. Their actions disrupt the balance, to an extreme. The light requires a correction or a trade-off. An immaculate birth signifies a course correction. However, the exercise of Anakin's free will does not provide the balance.

Luke (the Son), by means of individual balance (the rejection of aggression and revenge) and the demonstration of a will to sacrifice his own life, implores Anakin (the Father) to execute the will of the Force, through righteous and aggressive actions. To kill this evil being is 'righteousness'. It is the will of the Force.

As a result Palapatine is finished. Plagueis is a question mark. Although we know he was interested in 'Eternal' power, unlike Palpatine's interest in 'Temporal' or 'Material' power. Anakin has rid the Galaxy of this 'Material' evil and has brought 'Balance', but not necessarily the 'Harmony'.

'Harmony' is elusive in existence. One may be in 'Harmony' in various time and space. One may not be in harmony in perpetuity unless one has become 'One' with the Force. There may be 'Balance' in certain time and space, but 'Balance' is a constant existential struggle.

All living things (plants and animals) are in 'Harmony' with nature. There is no Free Will or higher consciousness. They are a part of their natural, instinctual, surroundings. There is no rootedness/relatedness, or narcissism, creation or destruction, transcendence or inferiority. It is only the natural state of being. Harmony.

Sentient beings are conscious of existence. They are aware that life will end. They use symbols to communicate. They are able to speak and think about the past, present and future. This awareness provides Free Will to make choices. There are also questions of environmental determinism and nature versus nurture arguments. This profound consciousness is not the natural order of things. It is disharmonious.

The collective higher consciousness of all sentient beings exists in a world where light and dark struggle in perpetuity. There may be 'Balance', but the collective conscious of existence provides no lasting 'Harmony'.

Therefore, the circle is not complete, the 'Prophecy' unfulfilled and the 'Chosen One' yet to do his/her/Its work.

 

Yet he dumped Luke as an option immediately after Luke refused to kill Vader. He didn't try any other means of turning him. You have zero actual evidence for your claim that Palpatine was all so interested in Luke Skywalker. On screen it shows without doubt that Palpatine was somewhat interested in Luke but didn't spend much effort on capturing him or turning him. No, Vader was the one obsessed with Luke Skywalker.

Just because he is a liar doesn't mean that you can just claim about his intentions what you want, ignoring existing facts.

Palpatine already had a damn fine servant in Vader (who was the most efficient and successful Imperial of the OT) and until TESB (were Vader started betraying him) he was apparently content with this. That is what the movies show.

So please show me something else rather than "it would make sense something something".

 

What were the Sith doing to unbalance it, though? That is the question, really.

 

My first reaction to Darth Tenebrous and Plagueis is that idea of making the Sith Lords very unique aliens seemingly chosen at random is a lot cooler than making them all humans like they are portrayed in the Old Republic. It adds scope to the setting, and gives the species equal importance. I hope that in the ST if there are Sith, they are strange alien species, or humans that are very freakish like Sidious and Vader.

 

In the novel Darth Plagueis, we don't learn what Plagueis's master's master did that initially unbalanced the entire Force.

But the novel does tell us a little of what Plagueis and Sidious did to completely overthrow the will of the Force, and it was a combination of things:
* Plagueis was able to resurrect someone over and over and over again (he kept murdering and resurrecting the same guy dozens of times in a single day)
* Plagueis created lifeforms using his power in the Force to influence midichlorians
* Plagueis increased his own midichlorian count to become unnaturally powerful
* Plagueis began the process of reversing his old age as well as healing old battle wounds (he was beginning to regrow the body chunks he lost in a grisly assassination attempt)
* Plagueis and Sidious engaged in this ambiguous dark side meditation battle with will of the Force itself, and won, expanding his consciousness throughout the entire galaxy
* (This all happened around the same time, and it's also the same time that Shmi became pregnant with Anakin)

 

How I saw it is like this:
1. Tenebrous's master and Tenebrous meditate, knocking The Force out of balance.
2. Plaguies and Sidious meditate, knocking The Force further out of balance.

That's all just me. Feel free to disagree.

 

But Plagueis and Sidious did all that other stuff I listed too (see my edited post) at the same time. And it's stated clearly that Plagueis and Sidious's meditation battle actually does succeed in overthrowing the will of the Force itself, I believe the metaphor was something like "toppling the Force from its throne" or something similar. Tenebrous's master was the one that unbalanced the Force, but what Plagueis and Sidious did was beyond just further unbalancing it, they completely overthrew it.