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PT Do you Consider Anakin Being placed inside the Darth Vader Suit an Iconic Star Wars Moment?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SkywalkerJedi02, Jul 19, 2013.

  1. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 12, 2013
    I have argued all I am going to on the point. But the guy had a completely twisted perspective on life and I would have liked something better. One thing I mentioned a long time ago was Anakin and Windu dueling in Palpatine's office after Anakin blocked Windu's strike on Palpatine (instead of cutting his hand off) much the same way as he did Luke's strike on Death Star 2. Windu's fighting to kill a Sith Lord and Anakin's defending him out of loyalty. But Anakin starts to lose control during the duel (with Palpatine encouraging his aggression similar to how he did with Luke on the DS2) and you can see the Dark Side kinda gradually take him over. He becomes aggressive, his eyes start to flare up, his persona changes. And then eventually he destroys Windu and joins Palpatine.

    I think something like that would have been better. Anakin is overcome in a "supernatural" way by embracing the Dark Side in an intense moment, much like Luke nearly did in ROTJ. But Anakin fails to calm himself as Luke did and gives in. That would have been a lot more reasonable way to explain Anakin's behavior and would have mirrored ROTJ very well.
     
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  2. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Yeah, I pretty much agree that an addition like this would have made it even better, though instead I would've had the scene occur at the temple when Anakin is sent in with the clone troopers to wipe the Jedi out. At first, he's just defeating them with his superior skills, but at some point, he is slightly wounded, and then he loses it, and starts fighting with rage. Then, when he makes it to the room where the children are, you know something bad is going down because Anakin's so full of anger. Actually, GL filmed a scene when Anakin killed some Jedi including Shaak-Ti in the temple (GL's constantly killing her off!), and maybe it went down in this way, but for some reason, GL decided not to use it.

    BTW, I think Mace fans wouldn't have liked Anakin taking down such a powerful Jedi as Mace was. Remember: Vaapad! Vaapad! Vaapad!
     
  3. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Not merely a conflicted person, no. But by no means an insane pyschopath either. You can't remove actions from context and I think the films present quite a bit of evidence that Anakin is rationalizing his actions as for the greater good. Many normal people do this all the time -- just on different scales and levels. When you're emotionally compromised and suffering a mental breakdown (as I believe Anakin was) actions can become more extreme -- as they do in this case.

    One thing that can't be separated is that Anakin is a soldier and the Jedi are functioning as a military organization by ROTS -- they're Generals leading an army. And that makes their slaughter much easier to justify in one's mind if given the proper emotional and intellectual framework. Which Anakin has unfortunately. It's a similar situation with Obi-Wan -- Anakin is telling himself that Obi-Wan is either with him or against him and that he's a threat if he's against Anakin.

    The sad truth is, you don't need to be a psychopath to rationalize the death of innocent people. We see this all throughout history with a recent example being the Iraq War. Whether you agree with it or not, there's no denying that over 30,000 civilians were killed in the war. And many people believe that the fight against terrorism meant their deaths were necessary sacrifices. Whether you agree with these people or not, I doubt that they are psychopaths.

    Anakin's choking of Padmé is another manifestation of his fear of loss and desire for control -- he fears he is losing her to the Jedi, that she isn't on his "side" anymore and that he can't control her. And so he lashes out and causes her pain in response.

    Note that I'm not saying that Anakin's actions were in any way good or justified, but I don't in any sense see him as a psychopath for making the choices he did. He was foolish and selfish, but history tells me that he's by no means the only person to do this.

    As for the scene itself, I certainly believe it's iconic -- up there with Luke gazing at the two suns or Vader's revelation of paternity. Similarly, the "No" in ROTS doesn't bother me anymore than Luke's "No" at the discovery that Vader is his father. But your mileage may vary.
     
  4. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think the dark side is dramatized and more dramatic version of what happens with people in real life. Power can be addicting. Very few dictators just step away, even if they can just move to Switzerland and live in luxury for the rest of their lives. One difference seems to be that the dark side hits you faster. Also, I think it's more like a drug than its real world counterparts. When Vader is talking to Luke, it seems like Vader really wishes he could break free of the dark side's hold on him, but he just can't. I think those who are power mad in the real, like Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, just won't allow themselves to recognize how terrible what they are doing is. They rationalize and live in denial. I can't imagine Hitler saying, "It's too late for me. I know Nazism is wrong, but I can't stop myself." Instead, Hitler would simply say what he's doing is just.

    But I think you're overall point is right. People who do evil in the real world usually can't turn their backs on what they've done. People like these become trapped in the role that they've created, and oftentimes, they've partially been created by warped environments too. I also totally agree that some of the most terrible people often had real affection for their families, children, and wives. There are tons of accounts of Nazis who ran concentration camps who came home and lived incredibly normal family lives.
     
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  5. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

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    May 12, 2013
    Good grief.

    "Foolish and selfish" doesn't quite describe suddenly deciding it's a good idea to wipe out all your comrades and a bunch of children so that "maybe" (even Sidious said he wasn't sure of how to achieve immortality) you can save your wife's life. It's insane. I don't think too many people (and bear with me on this) would (if they were in a hospital with a spouse who was terminally ill) be willing to pick up a gun and go kill just about everyone they know if they (for some reason) thought it would save their spouse. It would take someone with an extremely warped perspective to do something like that.
     
  6. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Ah, but I don't think it's *just* to save the life of his wife. It's also to create an Empire and end the war. When you frame it in that context, it becomes much easier to justify one's actions. I think that if Person A was offered an organ transplant for a loved one by Person B if they were willing to bomb a military base (that would also kill thousands of children) but would end a war that had claimed millions of lives and install a new form of government that Person A believes is more ideal, then I think you'd find a lot more takers.

    Because there's the emotional component (the threat to the loved one's life) which means you desperately want to trust in Person B. But there's also an intellectual framework in which to justify atrocities. Anakin frequently references this (as does Palpatine to goad Anakin on):

    For Palpatine:

    "if they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end"
    "we shall have peace"
    "you have restored peace and justice to the galaxy"

    Now, Anakin intends to overthrow Palpatine, but he does justify his actions multiple times:

    "I'm going there [Mustafar] to end this war."
    "Things will be different, I promise"
    "I have brought peace to the Republic."
    "I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire."

    There's a heavy level of rationalization here. Anakin tells himself that he has ended the war and brought peace and thus that justifies his actions against the Jedi -- he tells himself he's doing more good than evil, that his actions were necessary. Because ending a war certainly means that he's saving civilian lives and on the scale that the Clone Wars were, that would easily add up to thousands of lives (if not millions).
     
  7. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

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    May 12, 2013
    I am sure someone has a rationalization for every atrocity ever committed, real or fictional. I'm sure someone on this planet thinks Adolph Hitler's actions were understandable, even justified. But I happen to think Anakin's actions in ROTS were irrational and disturbing and that his turn could have been handled a lot better.
     
  8. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Of course, but this is Darth Vader we're talking about. He stood by and watched billions of civilian men, women, and children be killed for no reason at all. His actions were bound to be irrational and disturbing. I just disagree with your contention that he was a psychopath -- I think that many ordinary people, given the right circumstances, (that emotional and intellectual framework I mentioned early) could and would make the decisions Anakin did. I disagree that Anakin was a psychopath -- disturbed, mentally unbalanced, horrifically flawed yes. But basically anyone can become that way.
     
  9. Lee_

    Lee_ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Yes, and the novel greatly expands on all that you are saying here; we were having that discussion in another thread recently. Book narrative (for obvious reasons) can better explain these sorts of things, which is one of the reasons I always liked reading books of movies I liked a lot.

    The book really expands on how Palp uses the dark side and everything in Anakin's mind to turn him, everything from his horrific fear of losing Padme (which he obsesses on to no end after having lost his mother, and all of his associated feelings of guilt that he could have saved her) to saving the universe from a horrible war and a corrupt Jedi order (he twists Anakin's mind into thinking it is the Jedi and the Republic that are evil). The framework is all in the movie, but the book is great for expansive detail.
     
  10. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

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    May 12, 2013
    Once Anakin makes the turn, a realistic turn, I am okay with all the evil behavior afterwards. Think about Spider-Man 3, where the symbiote bonds with Peter Parker and completely changes his personality. I think he even hits Mary Jane at some point while under the influence of the symbiote. While I didn't like SM3 overall, I can buy an otherwise good Peter Parker being drastically different under those circumstances. I would have liked to have seen something like that from Anakin, and a duel with Windu (which would have been easy to put together in Palp's office) would have been a good catalyst for something like that and the "flaring eyes" would have given indication. But instead of that, we have Anakin making rationalizations that are just absurd and disturbing and not indicative of a good man who we ultimately want to give our sympathy.

    Both Anakin (as a character) and his turn could have been done a lot better, in my opinion.
     
  11. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 27, 2013
    This is exactly how it went in the Episode 3 video game for PS2. (I think it was on PS2) It was better.

    I don't think there's much argument against Anakin being a psychopath either. He stood there while one of his comrades ordered a planet destroyed, even condoning it. If that wasn't fiction, we would all consider that person a psychopath. As a sith lord, Anakin always did what was in his greater good.
     
  12. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 20, 2013
    I'm a bit late, but just a couple of thoughts.

    We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless; if they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end. First, I want you to go to the Jedi Temple. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme.
    So, Anakin goes to the Jedi temple to kill all the Jedi to gain more power. That's the whole thing and it's literally said in the movie. He wants to save Padme, he'll do anything for her, even this.

    Blind rage is one of human elements. Anakin starts to speak to Padme about his little dreams, his own empire, making the things he would like them to be, he envisioned himself in that idealistic universe - with Padme. And then she starts to walk away from him realising that he's more into gaining power and ruling the galaxy than her plus Kenobi shows up. Then the brat inside him chokes Padme, not Obi-Wan.
     
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  13. WatTamborWoo

    WatTamborWoo Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 22, 2011
    Perhaps this is the iconic moment of Vader going in the suit...The First Breath...

    [​IMG]
     
  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Visivious Drakarn : I agree with you as far as Anakin's reasoning, but that's precisely what irritated me about his turn.

    He couldn't ask how wiping out all the Jedi in the Temple would make him "strong enough in the Dark Side" to save Padme? Or what about this question: "Since you don't know how to achieve this power yourself, how do you know how strong in the Dark Side I would need to be to achieve it?"

    Never mind how ridiculous the "I'll do anything to keep my wife from dying, unless she doesn't like what I do to keep her from dying, and then I'll kill her myself." Um, what?

    The only thing that makes sense is that Anakin wanted the Jedi dead anyway, but I never got that impression. He had his issues with them but he didn't feel murderous towards them until Mustafar.
     
  15. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

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    May 12, 2013
    Ha! You summed up everything I have been trying to say in multiple posts in one sentence. Bravo!
     
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  16. SkywalkerJedi02

    SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 3, 2013
    well he does say "I'll do anything you ask I just cant bear to live without her"
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    That's not an excuse for his not asking how the hell following Palpatine's instructions was supposed to keep Padme alive though.
     
  18. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 24, 2013
    That didn't strike me as odd. Even though he wasn't enraged at that point, I don't think after the major incident that had just happened (Anakin making it possible for Palps to kill Mace, etc) he was thinking all that clearly. He probably felt that he had just "burned his bridges" with the Jedi anyway, and as others have pointed out, there were other factors in his mindset besides his desperation to have a chance at saving Padme (though I think that was the single most important of those combined factors). If the turn scene is viewed within the context of past conversations he's had with Palpatine (opera scene and others), we can see that Anakin had come to put a lot of trust in Palps, which, in spite of Anakin's conflicted feelings when Palps reveals he is a Sith lord to Anakin, I think would still be affecting his mindset. I think the fact that he has just witnessed the incredible dark side power (lightning, etc.) displayed by Palps would be enough "evidence" that Palps is in fact a proven expert in how to gain dark side power. As far as killing the Jedi (incl younglings) as a way of making him stronger with the dark side, I think that fits with things that Yoda says about the nature of the dark side in both the OT and the PT (IIRC). The more you allow yourself to indulge in dark side feelings and actions, the stronger it makes you with it. I think after Anakin's interference in the Mace/Palps duel, in Anakin's mind at least, there's no real clear way back from pretty much "putting all his chips in" with Palpatine, whatever that might entail. I agree in retrospect when just analyzing it in one's mind, the transition from Mace dying to Anakin going to the Temple might seem a little too rushed, but it never feels that way to me when I am actually watching the film. So the whole sequence never struck me as ridiculous or anything.
     
  19. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 20, 2013
    Hm. I think that asking those questions would be too much. The thing is, Palpy offered him help in finding a way to save Padme. Yoda told him to let her go, let her die, to be exact. Anakin grabbed Palpy's straw, falling to his greed. It was never about Palpy having that power, it was that he was the only one giving him hope of Padme's survival.

    Yes, it was obvious that Anakin had problems with the Jedi, but he turned his mind when Mace tried to kill Palpy. G. L. in an audio-commentary says that Anakin was right, they should have taken him to the courts, to stand trial, but Mace dismissed all the legal ways and decided to kill him. He, who denied Anakin's status of Jedi master, who said that he was too old to begin the training, he tried to kill his so called friend, father, in front of him. Anakin saved Palpy by allowing him to kill Mace plus all that Palpy had orchestrated to turn Anakin from the Jedi means that there was no going back. One has turned against my friend, they all have. Seduction in all his glory.
     
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Again I agree. But I also think that Anakin needed Biff Tannen's fist rapping on his noggin.

    Think, McFly, think.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
     
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  21. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2012
    I'm gonna say no, but only because they should have edited the sequence to have Vader's first breath coincide with Padme's last.
     
  22. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    I think it's just down to a matter of personal preference. I've never been overly fond of the "drug analogy" approach to the Dark Side largely because (for me) it robs the narrative of a lot of its thematic and ethical relevance. I don't mind the Dark Side having the same effects as, say, power (with the notion that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"), but I'm not a fan of the symbiote approach. I just think it's too "easy" -- it removes too much of Anakin's culpability for his actions if he's "drunk on the Dark Side." To some extent I can understand it -- giving in to his rage and no longer being able to control himself, but making the Dark Side explicitly addictive and mind-altering just dulls the impact of the story for me.

    I think that Anakin's rationalizations are disturbing precisely because they aren't wholly absurd, at least not as much one would wish. People say he's a psychopath, but this (in my opinion) comes from a complete misunderstanding of what a psychopath actually is. A psychopath is not equivalent to an evil person. And not all who commit atrocities are psychopaths by any stretch of the imagination. For example, to be a psychopath, one needs a history of behavior problems since childhood -- usually some form of conduct disorder, that Anakin clearly never displays as a nine-year old child.

    (Edit: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m...ear-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    This article by the New York Times really gives excellent insight into what it means to be a psychopath. In particular, note that psychopaths are often described as "callous-unemotional" which is the complete opposite of Anakin's issue where he cannot maintain control over his emotions.)

    If you want an example of a psychopath there's Palpatine (or even Tarkin). But whereas Palpatine experiences shallow emotions (except for anger), cannot feel empathy, is manipulative, and interpersonally exploitative, Anakin is easily manipulated, ruled by his emotions, and deeply attached to people he cares about. Anakin is petulant, selfish, (can be) cowardly, easily-manipulated, and naïve, but he's not a psychopath.

    Whether or not you give Anakin your sympathy is up to you. He has mine. At the same time, though, I would readily sentence him to life in prison without parole (or death if he could not be safely contained), but that doesn't mean that I am without empathy for his dilemma. Morality dictates, though, that I condemn his actions -- and that I do wholeheartedly, even as I can see why he chose as he did.
     
  23. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

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    May 12, 2013
    I think it's better than portraying him as a complete idiot, which is what he is throughout most of the PT.
     
  24. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    Anakin's not an idiot. He does not lack in intelligence or the ability to reason. But he is a fool, by which I mean that he allows his emotions and desires to rule him and he makes supremely unwise decisions as a result. Anakin's problem is not that he doesn't know right from wrong, but that he's too weak to do the right thing. He allows his own desires to overrule the welfare of others, which is the most basic definition of evil.
     
  25. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2013
    That article was interesting, but I didn't see where it claimed that a psychopath has to be identified by a history of childhood behavioral problems. If anything, it seemed to imply that authorities on the matter were divided on that issue.

    Not all authorities would agree that the child in that article is a "fledgling psychopath" Even the father and mother are seem to stand on different sides of the fence on this issue. The father believes that there is still hope for his son, because he sees so much of himself in the boy. And the mother seems to be losing all hope for her son to ever lead a normal life.

    Anakin, for his part, shows us a history of genocidal tendencies, even before he turned to the darkside. He slaughtered an entire tribe of tusken raiders. At this point he felt remorse for the darkness in his own soul rather than feeling remorse toward the men, women, and children that he'd murdered. Even after murdering the tuskens, he professed to still, "hate them," And then eliminating the jedi order was also genocide. By the time we come to the destruction of Alderaan, Anakin feels no remorse at all. He has his reasons for doing the things that he does, and we can all understand his reasoning. But another thing that the article made clear, was that those children acted the way they do in order to get what they want. They have their reasons as well.

    Not all evil people are psycho. That much is true. But I can't think of one historical figure who had a history of genocidal tendencies, that wasn't a complete maniac. I believe something was broken in Anakin. Even if you listen to the music when he starts slaughtering tuskens. It's very reminiscent of the old "Psycho" theme. The music sounds crazy. It was not just an angry theme.
     
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