Lit Dooku

No I countered by saying that:

" While as a Jedi we don't really know what his thoughts were on reformation. We only know the path he eventually settled on. No one forced him to become a Sith. He actively sought the title out and asked for it, claimed it. So i'd say the path he settled on is exactly the one he wanted."

In short, there's no way to determine what other path he might have taken other than the path he eventually decided to take, and i've seen nothing from the character over the years to imply a radically different path may have ever been on the table for him.

You then countered with this:

"I believe it's stated that Dooku initially wanted to track down and destroy the second Sith. And I believe it's also stated that Sidious approached him not the other way around. They talked for a bit and Sidious led Dooku to believe that they had similar interests."

Which is when I then brought in the quotes from the novel. To summarize, i'm again saying we can only judge him based on the route he took, and in terms of any possible alternate paths i've seen nothing to imply he would've done anything significantly different that would've somehow made the reformations he undertook less severe.


I again don't see him as having been ahead of his peers, and I also don't think he really acted against anything. No initial methods have ever been mentioned. What we know he did was debate with the council, leave the Order, and pursue the Dark Side and an alliance with the Sith. He didn't take any steps at that point to stem the corruption in the Republic. Rather he chose to join forces with the side that had been working to speed up said corruption for centuries.

I again don't think anything they said is concrete enough to have a detailed look at what their plans for reformation may have entailed. Just like there's no way to see what plans Dooku may have had anytime before he left the Order, because he's never gone in depth. We know the actions he took after leaving the Order and that's it. With Yoda and Mace, we have no idea how they would've actually gone about doing anything they talked about doing. Merely that they said the Chancellor would need to be taken care of, and the Senate controlled. How exactly any of that would happen, along with eventually rebuilding a new government, is never gone into. That's what i've been saying from the very start. Their methods are decidedly unclear, but their goals aren't. It should also be noted that you're basically talking about two different points. The Jedi are talking about replacing the government after Dooku himself has worked with Palpatine to further poison it and lead to its decline. The government that he saw before leaving the Order and deemed corrupt, is in itself better than the one Mace and Yoda saw and deemed corrupt, wherein a Sith Lord is now in control of it and nearly has the powers of a dictator. That means they're looking at two different pictures. The Jedi chose to do something when the government had reached the point it was being controlled by a despot who sought to enslave the entire galaxy, when they could really say there was no hope left for the Republic in that form. That's a worse scenario than the one Dooku was looking at and chose to leave. Which is again why I wouldn't really say he was ahead of anybody in his views.

 

I am trying to judge Dooku's intentions on what he might have done as a Jedi, not as a Sith. I think his actions would have been radically different as a Jedi than as a Sith, simply because of the differences of the two. I think he was ahead of his peers in that he saw the corruption in the Republic, defected from it, and gave thought to the destruction of the second Lord, before he accepted the Dark Side.

"Even though I knew that the Senate was corrupt, the Council was fallible, and Jedi training methods far from perfect, I remained with the Jedi Order for twelve years after Galidraan. Why? Because I still believed that I could accomplish some good as a Jedi. I thought I could bring about some positive changes, right certain wrongs, and do better than maintain the status quo. In short, I was an utter fool."

This clearly shows Dooku was motivated by a sense of 'doing good' while he was a Jedi. I am not arguing that this sentiment might have been dropped when he became infatuated with learning the Dark Side, but that at some point during his later years, he was trying his best to bring about 'positive changes'. This has always been the core of my posts: that Dooku was a Jedi with good intent but fell a long way.

The two Republics are not exactly alike, but I believe that the corruption was so rampant in the Senate during Dooku's defection that its inexcusable for the Jedi to not have taken action against the government then. Without a tyrant, the Republic was still very much needing change; tyranny was permitted because of the corruption within the Senate. I believe the situation was hardly worse than when Mace and Yoda come to discuss it. And I also believe that not only the goal was clear, but a rough method was articulated in how they would do it. If you are not satisfied, that is fine, but from my perspective, their lines are a definitive statement on how they would approach the problem: by controlling corrupt Senators and replacing them.

 

Komodo9Joe And as I keep telling you now, I simply don't think there's enough info. or anything in the writing to judge what he might've done as a Jedi. I'm not saying you can't still try to do that. I'm merely giving my answer to that option. I don't see much difference between Master Dooku and Darth Tyranus myself. The most significant difference to me having been that as a Jedi Dooku had to reign in some of his more negative qualities. The thought process is still the same, so i'd see whatever alternate path he might have taken being similar to the one he actually did take. Dooku was motivated to do good while as a Sith. He just basically believed the ends justified the means and didn't care about the average citizen in the galaxy. As George Lucas once said, no one who is truly evil ever thinks of himself as evil. (Paraphrasing) I think that even while a Sith he was still attempting to bring about a positive change. I think this is best shown in the ROTS Novelization, where based on his own thoughts he truly believes what he's doing will lead to a better galaxy.

I disagree myself, as before Palpatine becoming Chancellor for all the flaws in the Republic it was never as bad as it later became, where there was then a full scale war, a clone army, a Sith ruling the Republic, etc. Also, tyranny was permitted because a Sith Lord was manipulating the Republic for decades. Many of the conflicts that led up to the Clone Wars, were directly instigated by the Sith, which then led to the discussion of the need for an actual military, which then ended with the Battle of Geonosis, by in the Republic was forced to use the Clone Army. This led into the Clone War, which led to the Chancellor gaining more power, and eventually becoming Emperor. All of that comes directly from the Sith. You can't look at the Republic and call it corrupt without acknowledging the part the Sith played in that. And this is the very same Sith that Dooku decided to join and work with.

And from my perspective, as i've been stating for many posts now and you've continued to argue against, when my argument hasn't changed once, Yoda and Mace's discussion on reformation was extremely vague and not enough to have a good view of the path things would've taken. I'm obviously not going to now agree with you, when I haven't once implied I would lol you're the

 

I think we're in pretty sound disagreement over a couple of things. You believe Dooku's actions to reform as a Jedi would have been hardly different from his actions as a Sith; I strongly disagree and believe that as a Jedi, one is not prone to taking a more violent approach in reforming the galaxy. For twelve years after Galdiraan, Dooku had curbed his independent streak and had toed the Jedi line; it was only afterwards as a Sith that he acted more selfishly and mercilessly.

I disagree even more strongly on the situation in the Republic being so radically different that action didn't need to be called on earlier. I believe at the point in ROTS, the Jedi might have been incapable of doing anything. And I think it goes without saying that much of the corruption was instigated by the Sith.

Yes, I already understand your viewpoint on Mace and Yoda's line: you are unsatisfied with their comments on reformation as a basic plan. I, however, think otherwise. And I never said your argument has changed once so I'm not sure what you were trying to state. Again, I understand your viewpoint and I respectfully disagree as I do with your points on Dooku's resolve as a Jedi and corruption in the Republic. I am glad though that you brought up that passage from Darth Plagueis as I don't have a hard copy to refer to.

On a completely different note, do you know how to start one's own thread on JC forums?

 

Agree to disagree then.

And yes I do. Really just exit out of this thread, go to the top of the page, and on the right side of the page you'll see a blue tab that say post new thread. (Right under the search bar)



Of course depending on what section (Literature, TV, games, etc.) your thread belongs in you'll have to go to that specific section, but once you've done that its just a matter of putting in whatever information you want about the thread.

 

Thanks.

 

No Revenge of the Sith?

 

Hypothesis:

Count Dooku wanted to be special his entire life. Not just special as in a Jedi Knight but special even amongst his fellow Jedi. Whereas other Jedi promoted the Unifying Force and, essentially, everything would work out--Count Dooku promoted the Living Force. That you had to WORK to make things change. Somehow, though, he did it without developing the same level of empathy his apprentice Qui Gon did.

Qui Gon and Dooku didn't get along the way most apprentices did, primarily because of this problem--and Count Dooku's second apprentice was a miserable failure. She fell in love with him and "proved" herself by murdering dozens of Mandalorians in a mission which turned into a Yinchorr-scale bloodbath. His apprentice excommunicated from the Order thereafter. If Count Dooku found out Jango Fett's Mandalorians were innocent later, it was doubly humiliating.

Devoting himself to trying and salvaging the Republic situation, Sidious offered something...DIFFERENT. A way to be SPECIAL. Not just a member of an elite priesthood but the second most important individual in the galaxy. A man who would change EVERYTHING.

And with Qui Gon dead--he had no one to pull him back.

 

I think that the Expanded Universe has immensely simplified the unifying/cosmic and living Force "dichotomy," or otherwise haven't given it enough attention. I find it troubling that based on the line in the Ep 1 novelization that Qui-Gon paid too much attention to the living Force at the expense of the unifying Force that they somehow developed into competing philosophies when they're aspects of the Force.

I think the difference between Qui-Gon and Dooku is that Qui-Gon doesn't have any use for bureaucracy. He follows the Force. Dooku, on the other hand, wants to remake the Republic -- but that requires ego, because he thinks he knows best on what it should be.

 

This is more accurate than you think.

In a conversation with Palpatine, shortly before the Battle of Naboo and Qui-Gon's death, Dooku says:

So, in a way, Darth Maul's actions paved the way for his successor. How ironic.

 

It's interesting how so much was dependent on Qui-Gon's death.

With Qui-Gon alive, Dooku might not have gone over to Palpatine.
With Qui-Gon as his master, Anakin might not have gone over to Palpatine.
With Qui-Gon alive, the events of the remainder of the saga would not have happened as they did, and the Old Republic might still stand.

 

Definitely a better alternative than...

If not for Jar Jar, there would be no Emergency Powers.
If not for Jar Jar, there would Clone Wars
If not for Jar Jar, there would be no rise of the Empire

 

Qui Gon and Dooku went along while they did have some disagreement, they were quite alike according to Nu.

 

Speaking of Dooku, the Count seems to have a fondness for training apprentices and acolytes. He had enough Force-using disciples during the Clone Wars to form a small army. Many were jaded and disillusioned Jedi like Dooku himself, and yet others were powerful Force-sensitives, such as Savage Opress and Asajj Ventress.

Dooku managed to recruit quite a few Jedi, including Nax Cirvan, Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos, Tol Skorr, Kadrian Sey and Nikkos Tyris.

Baron Nax Cirvan is actually a fairly noteworthy example, as he is the only Acolyte that Dooku seems to have tutored in the ways of Force lightning. Cirvan uses it against Vader in the Ghost Prison. This is actually quite suprising, as Dooku doesn't teach that skill to any of his other disciples. This is emphasized during his training of Savage.

"A wise master does not reveal all his secrets at once."

And yet Dooku teaches this skill to Imperial Baron Nax Cirvan. They must have had an interesting relationship

 

Awesome essay on 1138, I'd like to compliment the writer.

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2013/09/the-tragedy-of-count-dooku/

I think the character of Count Dooku was created by George Lucas solely for the purpose of giving Palpatine a Sith apprentice to fill-in for Darth Maul as well as continue reflecting on Anakin Skywalker's eventual fate. Dooku, Maul, and Grevious are all shades of what is to eventually come with Darth Vader. It's George Lucas being unusually subtle, so much so that the fact Anakin is having his eventual fate telegraphed to him by the Force, that a lot of fans miss this storytelling point. I blame that on George Lucas being so BLATANT in other areas it's hard to imagine he's telling a story without beating its theme over your head.

In Lucas' case, Anakin will join the Sith and achieve great power but a time will come when Palpatine will betray him.

Dooku has had multiple characterizations but I like Ostrander's version best. Also, the Clone Wars version. Not for the reasons you might expect where Count Dooku is actually all that sympathetic. I actually like both of these because they're the Count Dookus which are the most evil. I'm even fond of Stover's version. However, at heart, what I like about these versions is they acknowledge Dooku has crossed the Rubicon of evil. A lot of fans really want Dooku to be the idealist because it adds shades of grey but there's one element that AOTC *REALLY* brings out.

Dooku is a HYPOCRITE.

If we can define Anakin by his obsessive possessiveness, Padme by her compassion (to a fault even), Obi-Wan by his fatherly mentoring, and so on--Dooku is two-faced. He lies like he breathes in Attack of the Clones to Obi Wan, to the Separatists, and presumably to Darth Sidious. Whatever good man might have existed before all this is destroyed by the time we begin the story. He's gone into creating the Clone Wars fully aware it will kill billions of people and he's done that because of his ambition. It diminishes Dooku to act like he's falling versus fallen.

 

I've always found Ventress rather fascinating in DR. Sure, she's killing Jedi, but she's also very clearly in over her head- that scene where Dooku chokes her for her audacity could be interpreted as him trying to steer her away from the Sith path (which adds to the element of remorse present in Dooku's portion of the book). She's constantly trying to please an indifferent master. Taken in this context, even her habit of collecting the lightsabers of her victims can be viewed in a new light- she's competing with Grievous for prestige, the attention of her master (and what an abusive relationship she has with Dooku), and the position of prime Sith acolyte.

I suppose I'm biased- I'm an unapologetic Obi-wan/Asajj shipper. I do enjoy the odd couples.

 

Thread Dooku: ROTS novelization resurrection.

I feel they go shockingly badly together, as in they're two completely different characters.

Then GET MAD, because I'm bringing this back up!

But I do! Because my brain just can't handle it. I don't know what fiction is real anymore. I don't know if Dooku was telling the truth in AOTC, or lying with the truth, or if he even knew how badly he wanted what he was saying.

Also notice how I cut off your reference to Episode VII because I censor things like that.

But what if Dooku was the ideal Sith from an OOU perspective and no one at LFL knew it?

Same here! I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?

Okay, enough hyping. I just read Stover's ROTS and I guess I kinda hated his Dooku? Sorta.

I mean, Stover captures his voice very well. It sounds like Dooku, the way Crispin's Solo sounds like Han from the OT.

But, like, right away, Stover writes Dooku as a total sociopath. I mean I knew this because I've read snippets people have posted over the years...but I didn't want to believe it! When I finally read it I was like nooOOoooOooo do not want.

Okay, he doesn't know what friendship is? Really? I get the reference, it was in a Jude Watson book, Legacy of the Jedi. But seriously? He doesn't know what friendship is? What is this thing you call friendship?

So...he was really messed up even when he was a little kid? He never knew something so basic as friendship? I mean, he seemed to have a past friendship with Mace in AOTC...or the Jedi seemed to think he was their friend at some point in the past. Windu and Mundi stick up for him.

More:

He goes on about jealousy, possessiveness, intolerance and spite as if they were virtues.

Not only has he never known friendship, he's never known love, hate, joy or anger. According to him in ROTS.

How the hell could this guy ever be a Jedi? How could they fail to notice that he has never had any idea of friendship, love or joy? Compassion, or unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life. How could Yoda miss that he was this cold? No one noticed over seven decades? Don't give me some "lol pt jedi suck" response.

They already had one psychopath under their nose in Palpatine, but he was an adult and great at hiding his true self, while they had Dooku since he was a small child. This isn't simply "blindness" by the Jedi, it doesn't make sense. It just goes too far.

I do like the moral outrage at the galaxy not conforming to How Society Ought To Be, this is very understandable and sympathetic, even with the aristocratic paternalism.

I just hate the Assets and Threats mindset. Not only is it not what I would have wanted from the character, but it's utterly boring.

I just hate this so much. He's just another Sith psycho. It's so boring. It's a lesser choice, imo.

Oh, and of course, he's a Space Racist/Space Human Supremacist, too. Boooooooorrrrrring. The character I saw in AOTC was much more interesting, even if it was all a lie. I suppose Stover didn't really have an opportunity to portray the lying manipulator, he had to stick to the script.

If Dooku "really" was just a charming, manipulative psychopath with little to no redeeming qualities all along, I guess I fell for it when I watched AOTC...even though I never fall for that kind of thing. Maybe it was just really well written and me and BC and others were all duped? Maybe Lee just knocked it out of the park?

I rather he wasn't just a psychopath, I rather there was more to him than that, even if it was mostly gone by the time we saw him in AOTC and replaced by the darkness of Darth Tyranus. Sean Stewart's approach to the character was wayyyy more interesting. There's something I love about a person who deceives by telling the truth they know won't be believed, the truth they desperately want to tell but can't admit openly. It's tragic.

Stover really does get the voice right, though. Even makes him kinda funny.

lol, there are a couple moments like this. It's just really funny to think of Dooku watching the Invisible Hand action comedy scenes and finding them distasteful and unfunny.

Another:

This is hilarious. Dooku is disgusted by Anakin's mechanical arm. Would have preferred fighting one handed to getting a mechanical replacement. Revolting. Appalling. The depths of Bad Taste. LOL Skywalker is not fit to be seen with. This cracked me up.

This is great. "Idiotic peasants". A pants on fire joke.

Even though I disagree with the whole psychotic Sith development, Stover still wrote him in a way I enjoyed. And the duel is really great stuff.

I suppose we could talk about what exactly was the plan with Dooku being captured and taken in and later pardoned, but that seems like minutiae.

I should read Yoda: DR so I can relive the dream of a better Dooku.

 

Part of me still wishes Dooku hadn't been Sith, but just wrong.

 

Could you elaborate?

 

Still chafing that we haven't got a Dooku novel or series. He's always just been a part-time villain in the background. Surely Luceno hasn't been that busy? Would it really have killed Disney to contract a few more novels of the last few years? I mean it's not like a novel about Dooku would interfere with their film planning and it's a guaranteed money maker right?

 

Iv never clicked on a thread so fast thought a book had been announced ! My take on Dooku give him a book already !

 

Dooku always boiled down to basically just a copy of Tarkin but with a lightsaber and a stand in and foreshadowing for Anakin/Vader. His real name basically means "ass" and "poison" in two different languages and his Sith name is self explanatory as well.

 

The original plan was Palpatine would use him as a Dark Jedi, and a political advisor during the Clone Wars. That was the plan. But after Maul's death, he needed an apprentice, and Dooku could do the job.

But seeing how limited the time for the other characters except for Anakin, and Obi-Wan in the movie, there was no way to efficiently use three main antagonists in one movie (Maul-Dooku-Sidious). Even in Episode III, Dooku died at the beginning of the movie, Grievous and Sidious continued.

 

I don't think Dooku is anything like Tarkin. Tarkin is blunt and excessive. He tells you he's going to crush you and then he does it with massive overkill. Tarkin coming off as having some sort of elite background doesn't mean he's like Dooku.

 

I've just finished Jude Watson/Judy Blundell's Legacy of the Jedi, and while I enjoyed it, I think that Dooku: Jedi Lost did quite a few things better.

In the initial conflict with Lorian over the theft of the Sith holocron, I found myself siding with Dooku at first, despite his over-the-top anger at Lorian's lie. While he seemed to lack some social awareness, Lorian's characterisation of him seemed extremely unfair given what we were shown. The choice to semi-expel the 13-year-old Lorian was also very harsh.

From there Dooku seems to undergo an overly dramatic transformation that didn't feel justified to me. He becomes the very person that Lorian claimed he was, with very little in the story to support it besides his friend blaming him for theft one time. I understand that there is more to Dooku's story in the EU, but this book makes him seem far too petty and spiteful for my taste. To be fair though, it is a middle-grade novel.

Besides this, the RotS novelisation, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Master and Apprentice, Dooku: Jedi Lost, and the Republic comics, is there other prime Dooku content?