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Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
  2. HWK-290

    HWK-290 Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jul 29, 2013
    You're moving the goalposts here: the crux of this particular argument of hers is that pure intentions don't necessarily justify one's actions. By logical extension, then, pure intentions don't in and of themselves justify the use of negative emotions.

    That said, she does make a case in Destiny's Way that certain emotions such as anger aren't always necessarily negative, given that they can be useful in a non-harmful fashion.

    Now, if you want to try and argue that anger isn't useful, be my guest.

    If you're:

    1. A psychopath.
    2. A Jedi.

    Point number two is the fulcrum around which the entire philosophical dilemma of the NJO revolves.
     
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  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    HWK-290

    What Vergere says about anger is actually identical to what Thich Nhat Hanh, a Zen Buddhist monk, writes about dealing with anger. "Earlier I gave the example of a big brother who got angry at his sister at first and then found out that she had a fever, and he understood and became concerned, and he tried to help her. So the destructive energy of anger, because of understanding, is transformed into the energy of love. Meditation on your anger is first of all to produce awareness of anger, "I am the anger," and then to look deeply into the nature of anger. Anger is born from ignorance, and is a strong ally of ignorance."

    Nope, contradicts Yoda, dark side.
     
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  4. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    Why would a Jedi kill, kill and kill? S/he wouldn´t, not without need.

    And no, I don´t see positive points in anger. If we were talking about fear, that´s another matter.
     
  5. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    If only...

    Ignorance is just a possible reason, there are lots more. Anger is also born from fear, and fear not always comes from ignorance.
     
  6. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Thich Nhat Hanh has an interesting parable in the book right after that paragraph on anger:

    "In Buddhism, knowledge is regarded as an obstacle to understanding, like a block of ice that obstructs water from flowing. It is said that if we take one thing to be the truth and cling to it, even if the truth itself comes in person and knocks at our door, we won't open it. For things to reveal themselves to us, we need to be ready to abandon our views about them.

    "The Buddha told a story about this. A young widower, who loved his five-year-old son very much, was away on business, and bandits came, burned down his whole village, and took his son away. When the man returned, he saw the ruins, and panicked. He took the charred corpse of an infant to be his own child, and he began to pull his hair and beat his chest, crying uncontrollably. He organized a cremation ceremony, collected the ashes and put them in a very beautiful velvet bag. Working, sleeping, eating, he always carried the bag of ashes with him.

    "One day his real son escaped from the robbers and found his way home. He arrived at his father's new cottage at midnight, and knocked at the door. You can imagine at that time, the young father was still carrying the bag of ashes, and crying. He asked, 'Who is there?' And the child answered, 'It's me, Papa. Open the door, it's your son.' In his agitated state of mind the father thought that some mischievous boy was making fun of him, and he shouted at the child to go away, and he continued to cry. The boy knocked again and again, but the father refused to let him in. Some time passed, and finally the child left. From that time on, father and son never saw one another. After telling this story, the Buddha said, 'Sometime, somewhere you take something to be the truth. If you cling to it so much, when the truth comes in person and knocks at your door, you will not open it.'

    "Guarding knowledge is not a good way to understand. Understanding means to throw away your knowledge. You have to be able to transcend your knowledge the way people climb a ladder. If you are on the fifth step of a ladder and think you are very high, there is no hope for you to climb to the sixth. The technique is to release. The Buddhist way to understanding is letting go of our views and knowledge in order to transcend. This is the most important teaching. That is why I use the water to talk about understanding. Knowledge is solid; it blocks the way of understanding. Water can flow, it can penetrate anything."

    "You must unlearn what you have learned."
     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    My issue is that Vergere left Jacen to be tortured and alerted the Vong to the Jedi mission.

    Her actions, more than her words, are the danger.
     
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  8. HWK-290

    HWK-290 Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jul 29, 2013
    Did her justifications in Destiny's Way not satisfy you?

    If there's anything damning in the NJO, it's that she took the right to reeducate Jacen. Anything else is ancillary.
     
  9. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Her justifications in Traitor satisfied me.
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    No, they didn't.

    I don't think Vergere was a Sith but her actions should have been deeply troubling and ruthless--something Luke and Mara had a right to be wary of.

    A conflict between "Greater Good" and "Personal Good" between Luke and Vergere is perfectly normal.
     
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  11. HWK-290

    HWK-290 Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jul 29, 2013
    The shadowmoth metaphor was excellent but it didn't really get down to the why. Who Is Jacen Solo got closer, but didn't really address why she was even bothering.

    ...of course, here comes the circle, "Are we back to why?"
     
  12. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Yoda says there is no why. Or try. I can quote Yoda devoid of meaning as well!

    Jacen Solo is Vergere's Yuuzhan'tar.

    And I mean the TUF variety -- not the derailed one.

    There was no "why" to Yuuzhan'tar.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    Or she could have gone with Han at the end of the 4th book, tell the Jedi what she knew and suspected, expose her theories, and likely save a lot of lives. Instead she went back to the YV, sabotaged part of the SbS raid, and had someone tortured (and tortured herself) to manipulate him into her way of thinking. She wasn´t short on arrogance, that´s for sure.

    For some reason I´m starting to feel like when I discuss Triss in The Witcher forums...

    PS - knowledge is not the same as wisdom.
     
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  14. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I'm sure the Jedi would have been happy to hear her out after the Yuuzhan Vong she was just with tried to poison them all in Hero's Trial.

    I'm beginning to suspect this controversy with Vergere is over this expectation that she somehow hack the Force like Kirk hacks the simulation of the Kobayashi Maru and overcome all the practical limitations of her situation to behave in a wholly heroic way that isn't at all immersing herself in the moral quandary tar baby that is the Yuuzhan Vong War, because you see, when you look at it simply, the Yuuzhan Vong are EVIL and need to be wiped out, it's simple, just be Anakin Solo and KILL THEM ALL.

    But you have to do it honorably with Centerpoint Station, not with Alpha Red.
     
  15. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Am I missing something here? No one who was against Alpha Red was "okay" with Centerpoint. I don't think...
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Eh, Triss is a horrible-horrible person. Geralt just like her for both obvious and inobvious reasons (and most people aren't much better).

    But yes, I don't mind genuine moral ambiguity but we never had it confronted Vergere may well have lead to Anakin's death.
     
  17. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Because Yoda is a movie character and nothing should challenge the movies................
     
  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Getting us Jedi Master Sith Pigeon the Saint of Forcedom,

    I think Balance Point was the turning point in the New Jedi Order series. The introduction of Tsavong Lah was where things started to come together and we got a general sense of what the Vong were, what they could do, and how much a threat they posed to the rest of the galaxy.

    The conquest of Duros was a major moment in the war because that was right next to the Core and while it didn't have the same level of impact as the taking of Coruscant, the fact it was RIGHT NEXT to Coruscant actually made the invasion seem like a massive galaxy-spanning threat.

    The previous five volumes didn't do much for me on that because I was never quite sure how big the Vong invasion was. It wasn't until Balance Point I grocked the Vong were capable of defeating the entire New Republic and weren't just a threat which severely threatened it.

    I really think Tsavong Lah personified the Vong in a way which needed being done. Nom Anor was an enjoyable character but the fact he's a middle-manager meant that his adventures were always rather humorous on some level as opposed to threatening. It's a bit like following Smee from Peter Pan around as opposed to Captain Hook himself. Tsavong Lah gave us the FACE OF THE VONG in a way that made them terrifying.

    I will say, however, the fact he's a rather transparent copy of Darth Vader hints at what I think is an underlying flaw of the New Jedi Order. Shimmra and Tsavong Lah as Vader and Palpatine stand-ins are really what made the latter half of the NJO good. Basically, the New Jedi Order started getting good the more it started immitating the Star Wars Saga it was so desperately trying to separate itself from.

    If they were rewriting the series, I think I would have inserted Shimmra and Tsavong Lah into Vector Prime from the beginning. Basically, give us a sense of the Emperor and Lord Vader from the beginning even if we're facing folk like Grand Moff Tarkin.
     
  19. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    So, the NJO is emulating the films by deploying tropes common in literature?

    Which film character was Nom Anor? How about Onimi?

    And I question the statement that the NJO was trying to distance itself from the films. It was following the hero's journey just like the films.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Charlemagne19 , I agree, although I don't know that I would have introduced Tsavong Lah in Vector Prime. It had Yomin Carr, who was a great villain in his own right, and neither he nor Nom Anor needed to be overshadowed that early in the series.

    I liked the Duro scenes. Han and Leia were there at the same time but their communication is so horrible at this point that neither knew the other was there. And it ended with the Vong taking over. Jacen finally got off the pity pot and did something, but the Vong won anyway, and were able to push towards Coruscant. It wasn't a happy ending but IMO it was the only appropriate one.
     
  21. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    The authors have flat out called Tsavong Lah their Darth Vader and Shimmra their Emperor figure.

    So, my response is a rather childish. :p

    The NJO was improved by this too.
     
  22. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I know, I posted the excerpt from ERC. But Tsavong isn't Jacen's father, nor is he redeemed, nor does he even face Jacen in combat again after Balance Point. He's the dragon to the big bad, but that's where the connection ends. Likewise, Shimrra's similarities to Palpatine are... he's the leader (but he's not even that).

    How do you have a story without those tropes?
     
  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Very easily. Giving the Galaxy Conquering Warlord a Brute Force henchmen is not at all necessary but made the story more familiar and enjoyable. Likewise, most Star Wars EU don't have that specific relationship but it enriched the NJO experience.

    We'd drifted too far from the familiar.
     
  24. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    And LOTF shows what happens when you stay too close to the familiar.
     
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  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I wouldn't have changed much but maybe had a few more "conferences" between Tsavong Lah and Shimmra where we see them ordering around our various villains. I also would have liked the clarification the Vong fleet outnumbered the entirety of the New Republics several dozen (hundred?) times over or something to give us a sense of their power.

    Blame my inner fleet junkie but we could have had a lot of fun debates about whether the Vong would be outlasted by the galaxy or if they'd power through.

    I just took that as bad writing.