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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    They gave him several: Da'Gara, Shedao Shai, Tsavong Lah, Czulkang Lah, Shimrra himself.
     
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Servants of the Villain do not a TV tropes Dragon make. Anymore than Joruus C'Boath or Pellaeons was Thrawns.
     
  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    You're right, Lah wasn't the Dragon at all, because Shimrra was. Onimi was the Big Bad.
     
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  4. HWK-290

    HWK-290 Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jul 29, 2013
    Yes, it's called sarcasm. :p
     
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  5. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    Thus far in the series, there seems to be a point of showing us the layers of the Yuuzhan Vong hierarchy. We start out with the Praeorite Vong, who, if later sources are to be believed, are politicians rather than warriors, working of their own accord. Dark Tide introduces us to the bulk of the Vong forces through Shedao Shai and his command, but even he is only a Commander, whose lackey reports directly to the Warmaster. He's also mentioned in both Agents of Chaos books, being "seen" via villip for the first time. He's given build up as someone that even the most brutal of the Yuuzhan Vong fear and respect.

    Tsavong Lah is the looming, lurking threat through both Dark Tide and Agents of Chaos, and his entrance in Balance Point is... posturing and grand, but not all that effective. Unlike Shai or Yomin Carr, we don't get to see much of Lah in action. He's built powerfully, taller than even the tallest warrior, with armor crafted into his body. Jacen doesn't fight him directly, he summons a maelstrom of the Force, grabbing everything that's not nailed down and clobbering every Vong in sight with debris.

    Tsavong Lah was put into the series as early as was prudent. He is the Warmaster, not the Tank. He's the four-star general, not the battlefield commander. Sure, his actions put him on or near the front lines, but only when he's so assured of his own victory that any hint of a threat to him is laughable.

    The only misstep I see in the introduction to the Vong leadership is that, aside from Nom Anor, none of the Vong seen in Vector Prime matter in the least. Yomin Carr is an effective villain, yes, but he's dealt with and done in one book. And his entire faction is wiped out to a being. It's tough, considering how Salvatore has to introduce us to the Vong in the first place, to imagine it would have been less effective for him to likewise at least mention the Warmaster in some form or fashion, even if he didn't appear. Making the villain of the first book detached from the bulk of the enemy forces, in the end, lends them an air of unimportance (even IU). Make the Praetorite Vong a dedicating scouting caste and have someone report to Tsavong Lah at some point, it helps tie everything together so much better.

    It's odd. Having finished Balance Point, most of my problems with this series were either started or inferred from the writing or events of Vector Prime. I still don't think it was a bad book, just... not a great one to start off with, in hindsight.
     
  6. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    Sorry for the double post. I'd expected the lively discussion to continue, but, ah well.

    So, Balance Point, the first truly standalone book in the NJO since VP, was a pretty solid read. I enjoyed it. It wasn’t above criticism, though, and, since I’ve received requests in the thread to make my reviews more Cynical, I’ll try and do so from here on out.

    First, I’ll tackle the elephant in the room: Jacen Solo deciding to be a Force pacifist for two months. In all honesty, I don’t have a problem with it. But, that’s not based simply on that action alone, because just deciding to not use the Force is irresponsible, to say the least. I don't have a problem with it because of what else Jacen does and his reasons for doing so. He removes himself from a combat role and withdraws from the Force to ponder his role in life. He’s a gifted young man who, with the entire galaxy open in front of him, doesn’t see a clear path and is too frightened to take that first step for fear of it being the wrong one.

    That’s the crux of Jacen’s character arc here, not him trying to push his beliefs on others, not openly as he did at Centerpoint in the last book. And I like the way it unfolds. I recently finished graduate school and, like Jacen, I now face the future full of possibility and given great gifts to use, but without a clear goal in mind. Unlike Jacen, though, I don’t have a family who are all made up of legends and heroes.

    His struggle isn’t with philosophy; he lost a philosophical battle at Centerpoint, but the war was deferred thanks to what happened there. Jacen’s faith in his own ideas and philosophy was shaken to the point where he withdrew from the one thing that he had been trusting in and relying on to give him insight. He withdrew from the one thing that defined him as a person, and in doing so utterly lost track of who he was.

    The vision he saw reminds me of the idea of a shatterpoint, not in its physical manifestation, but as it can be seen through the Force. Jacen was a shatterpoint on Duro, not the most important one, but the one with some of the farthest-reaching consequences. Jacen was the reason Leia was able to escape Duro, because he chose to turn and fight, instead of running away as he had been. He stood firm. However, he also guaranteed that Tsavong Lah would witness first-hand just how dangerous even the “unworthy” Jedi could be, and so doomed them all to be hunted and persecuted across the galaxy. Would Lah have put out the hue and cry for Jeedai even if Jacen had not acted? Impossible to say. But he certainly would not have made it so personal.

    His vision didn’t come to final crux in this book. The Vong took Duro, but they have yet to take Coruscant. And while he may have been able to save his mother from the oncoming darkness, the darkness still advances, a black knife poised just above the New Republic’s fast failing heart. But, as Yoda said, always in motion is the future. And hopefully, Jacen won’t be scared of it anymore.

    So, yes, I enjoyed Jacen’s character arc in this book. He wasn’t whiny, he was lost; he wasn’t complaining, he was groping for understanding, caught in his own hypocritical rules he set up to protect himself from falling. Droma pitied him, and so did I. Seeing him stand firm and cut loose on the Vong was terrific and satisfying, especially the visual of a gawking Tsavong Lah being clobbered by that massive desk and tumbling out of the window.

    Speaking of which, I did note that Tsavong Lah is in fact accompanied by a small procession of priests with instruments when he tries to sacrifice Leia.I picture it like Monty Python and the Holy Grail, with Sir Robin’s minstrels narrating his every action. It makes Tsavong a bit silly when he isn’t at all supposed to be. His final speech to the New Republic is chilling regardless. Give me your Jeedai, indeed. Comparisons to Darth Vader are a bit unwarranted at this stage. Aside from posturing in front of his soldiers, arguing philosophy with Leia and issuing orders, Tsavong hasn’t actually done anything I can recall. He certainly didn’t fight at all, not before getting knocked out of a window with the Goofy yell playing over his descent.

    The other parts of this book that I noted in my previous posts still stand for the most part. We get to see Mara in action for the first time since the end of Vector Prime (and the first appearance of the Jade Shadow, along with both a Tendra and Talon Karrde namedrop), and it’s still better than previously. However. She’s pregnant now, right after she makes her peace with the matter. Stanging Force, just when you think you’re out it pulls you back in. I haven’t got anything against Luke and Mara having kids, but, even Mara realizes that this is not the best time for it. And right when the authors get around to having her realize that fact, oh, nope, she’s pregnant and has no idea how it happened. They try to justify it by saying that it might be a side effect of Vergere’s tears (and I’m sure Denning would love to retcon something about that if he knew that was the case), but I’m not buying it.

    I’ve defended Mara in the past, and I think her emotional reaction to what happens, being confused and protective at the same time, fits her character. People forget, the Empire raised her from the time she could walk to be an assassin and a spy, someone who took life, not made it. The prospect of suddenly being a mother is bound to throw her for a loop.

    But,

    There’s no room for a payoff in this series. Even at nineteen books, not enough time is going to be covered so that their child has a chance to be anything but a plot device. It’s an authorial excuse for Mara so she has a reason to exist in this series, but can still be placed out of the action when it’s convenient (or when the author doesn’t know what to do with her. Oh, she’s got… morning sickness, yeah.)

    I’ve said it previously, but Mara should have died in this series instead of later on. Imagine if, rather than her being pregnant, she was simply cured of her disease, and she’s the one to lead the strike force in Star By Star due to her experience with both the planet Myrkr and with infiltrations in general. Can you imagine how much that would change the dynamic of the series, the emotional impact, the dramatic thrust? How it would completely change the map for the post-NJO EU?

    Sorry. I’ll stop writing fanfic and get back to the book.

    Han and Droma part ways here, the Ryn going somewhere as far from the line of fire as they can. I don’t blame them. I’m not sure if there’s been a more persecuted group of beings over the past three books. Han’s refusal to say goodbye struck me as very poignant. They’ve become good friends, and it’s a bit bittersweet to see Droma go, especially when we’re not even sure he and his clanmates will escape Duro alive.

    Nom Anor is a terrific villain in this book, laying out so many plots and traps that, no matter what happens on the intelligence or political side of the spectrum, things will play into the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong. Tsavong Lah is the main villain, yes, but Nom Anor is the ensemble darkhorse. If Tsavong Lah is Darth Vader, Nom is a well-developed and fleshed-out Boba Fett.

    Duro is never really fleshed out as a culture, the planet itself serves as a backdrop to the drama of the refugee situation, the battle against the elements, Nom Anor's machinations and the character's colliding. I did note some shout-outs to odd things, though, both the Glove of Darth Vader series (fefze beetles, among other Duro-y tidbits) and The Hobbit (Beater and Biter being the names of the Yuuzhan Vong demolition beasts). It's an interesting blend, certainly.

    What else… hmm… Jaina’s character takes a few interesting turns, even if they don’t really go anywhere. She turns into a teenager again for one seen so that she and Leia can have a mom and daughter disagreement, because that’s what teenagers and their parents do (you’re never there for me, you never wanted me, etc). Blinding her is an interesting choice but, in the end, it really doesn’t lead to much of anything. The focus of the book’s development is on Jacen, and Jaina really doesn’t get much to do aside from play bad cop.

    Also, the whole Marakin thing: overrated as heck. Sure, they have chemistry together, but that’s because Mara’s going out of her way to teach Anakin, tutoring him how to be a Jedi without always using the Force, the same way she did on Dantooine. And the scene with her in the noblewoman disguise: could it be possible that he was reacting to the fact that she was, you know, wearing a disguise?

    Oh, also, I haven't mentioned the Japanese covers to this series yet, but I have to here: their cover of this book is awesome.
    [​IMG]
    Overall, the book is pretty decent, not on the level of either of the past duologies, but better than Vector Prime. Recommended, with a caveat: Read it for Jacen and the other character focuses, because if you come in expecting Dark Tide’s battle sequences or Agents of Chaos’s sense of adventure, you’re going to be disappointed. It’s solid, but not great.
     
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  7. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    So, Vergere knocked Mara up and Ben isn't really Luke's son -- phase II of the Sith plan of Vergere and Lumiya is in effect.

    We just doomed the EU.
     
  8. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The Japanese covers are usually better.
     
  9. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    [​IMG]
    Now we've got a Red Star Destroyer, Luke wielding a lightsaber even though that doesn't actually happen IIRC, Mara with her blaster as is par for the course, a Yuuzhan Vong guy, Anakin with a pet rabbit, and his underage girlfriend. Plus Yavin and some Yuuzhan Vong woman with medusa hair.

    AKA Anakin's descent into the underworld.

    But first, HWK-290 needs to post his long essay about BP.
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Zero?

    The problem was that Anakin's death was so moving, powerful, and still TICKS people off because he was a teenager. It's a little bit of the James Dean effect around Anakin. Anakin had a bunch of stories still going around him from the fact he's discovered how to sense the Vong with his new lightsaber, he's got a budding romance with Tahiri the Half-Vong, and he's the likable everydude in the Jedi Order. Snuffing him before his life got started was MASTERFUL storytelling because it's flat-out something which violates the Star Wars narrative in a way which is not supposed to happen.

    It's as if Luke died on Bespin.

    The loss of Mara Jade, a woman in her mid-forties who had a long and steady career as a character, is flat-out not going to invoke the same sort of reaction or outrage. You'd think the internet BROKE on these forums when Anakin died as people were posting by the hundreds when it happened.

    Hell, I'm fairly sure we would have found out Luke Skywalker had a son by Callista and they'd been married by a Jedi ceremony beforehand--which ended with her death before his marriage to Mara.

    Which is REALLY sad but the publishers wouldn't have let Luke's line end. With or without Mara.
     
  11. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I don't think that they killed Anakin to evoke that response -- I think it was a vestige of the earlier draft in which Jacen held the same role that Anakin came to hold and died because the Yuuzhan Vong thought Jacen was the prophesied one, but it was actually Anakin.

    As for why they still killed Anakin, it was likely because they maintained the same overall series plot and resolution, and Jaina was already being so badly neglected in it that they didn't want to rewrite the whole thing because to neglect Anakin at that point would exacerbate the problem.

    Remember, this upcoming Edge of Victory duology was something of a last minute replacement for the Knightfall trilogy which was cancelled, and which would not have featured Anakin. Tahiri likely wouldn't have been in the series at all were it not for this last minute switch, nor would the lambent crystal which was basically Del Rey hinting at what was to come. The situation with Anakin is really just a perfect storm -- Stackpole didn't like the idea at all and thought if he focused him extensively that would perhaps result in a reprieve, giving Anakin substantial screen time he may not have otherwise gotten. Then the Knightfall trilogy is cancelled, resulting in Anakin more or less getting his own duology -- at the very least his own novel, along with its companion which broadens its scope but still features Anakin predominantly.

    Then Star by Star, with its milestone planned from the onset, happens, and all that build-up which was unplanned overall but just happened exacerbates his death as a gut punch. I doubt they intended it to go down like that and it just happened, and the options were either to kill Anakin or to completely rewrite the second half the series on the fly. They killed Anakin.
     
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  12. HWK-290

    HWK-290 Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jul 29, 2013
    Sithspit, I have to actually write that now, don't I?

    ...I joke. I'm still working on it; there are a number of quotes that I'd like to address, and I suppose I'll have to revise a few paragraphs in light of Cynical_Ben hitting a lot of nails on their heads. Expect it sometime this weekend. In the meantime, pray continue. Onward to Edge of Victory, even.
     
  13. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    I see where you're coming from. I was really was just spitballing, I haven't read Star By Star yet and I wasn't around here when it originally hit the shelves. I was here when Mara died, and the complaint then that I saw wasn't the fact that she died so much as it was how she died. Anakin's death, as you said, even now, has some people so up in arms that they practically write fanfics where he somehow lives in their own blood. It's almost created a cult around the character. Anakin's a decent kid, sure, but if he hadn't died when he did, he wouldn't be nearly as popular as he is not. Mara's eventual death was probably meant to repeat that sort of shock, but it didn't work because A: the circumstances leading to and justifying her death were incredibly contrived and B: because she's just one of quite a few characters that series (which shall not be named) either killed or forgot about.

    I don't know if I'd ever call the death of a character masterful storytelling, but I'm not sure where him living and Mara dying would have improved the story, either. I concede the point.
     
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  14. HWK-290

    HWK-290 Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jul 29, 2013
    Phanan and a certain grandstander would like some words with you as far as this franchise goes.
     
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  15. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Anakin's fans would argue that his survival would improve the story by opening up a vast potential of storytelling avenues involving him and Tahiri -- whereas removing Mara would not remove anything, especially if she already gave birth to Ben in the preceding novel. It might even add something to Luke's arc.

    And for the record, I have my own belief for why Anakin was killed, which I can't really say is the reason, but the way things went after the series concluded suggests to me that it was the reason.
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    As you say, it was a happy coincidence which resulted in all of these things coming together to maximize the gut punch of Anakin Solo's death. The perfect storm really did work exceptionally well and fans still mourn Anakin Solo's death or write "fix fics" where he's found alive in carbonite or raised from the dead by the Force.

    Sometimes that happens in writing. Sort of like how the original Star Wars screenplay was garbage.



    Yet, somehow, was tweaked that the final result is one of the best films of all time.
     
  17. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    Good point, well made. I'm not sure that the circumstances of those deaths necessarily line up with Anakin's, but, I again concede the point. I often see character death as being a dead-end more than being a crux of a tale, snuffing a character out before they have a chance to tell us their story. But, it has been a part of Star Wars since the beginning, both in the movies and the EU.

    The death of a well-developed, loved character, provided it isn't bungled in some way, can make for very effective storytelling.
     
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  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Thanks,

    It's hard to put into words how the Star By Star phenomenon hit things because everyone was spoiled that a character would die but no one actually believed it would one of the Solo Kids. They were the next generation and if the Star Wars Protective Bubble was burst, everyone had just assumed a second even more secure Bubble was about the Human Solo-Skywalker clan. Anakin was spoiled a few days before but really, no one believed it. You can't really imagine that sort of thing now Post-NJO.

    It actually wasn't until Dark Journey when Anakin's body was burned at a funeral pyre people started to realize he was All-Dead.

    Not MOSTLY-Dead.



    I don't approve of stunt deaths because comic books have ruined them forever. They kill a character knowing they can be resurrected later on and purely for shock value. Anakin was a character I loved and still love to this day. I loved him and Tahiri (Vong-parts aside) and would have loved to have seen him become head of the NJO. I will say, however, that the death worked for what it was meant to do.

    Be the moment where things were at their darkest.

    Edit:

    I also state that Anakin had the good sense to die before he made any of the mistakes which permanently soured people against him. Jacen Solo already had Centerpoint and the "mom is getting killed, do I help her? What a moral dilemma" moments--which really had people HATE the guy. TUF won some people back but people tend to forget that Troy Denning was not alone in thinking Jacen was going to the Dark Side. There was a sizeable following wanting to see Jacen turn dark before LOTF came out and people turned around on that issue.
     
  19. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    TIME TO GIVE UNPOPULAR OPINIONS

    The reason I think Anakin was killed was because, I'm sure more than once in the series but the one time I recall was in Traitor, he compares himself to Luke. Anakin represents Luke the way that Luke was written in the pre-NJO. He's not philosophical, he views the Force as a tool and a weapon and the Jedi Knight is a galactic enforcer of justice. This is what Luke's students became, as we see in Kyp, Ganner, Wurth, Miko, et al., because this is what Luke was. Luke, however, at this point became wiser with age, and is looking at the Big Picture now: the political side of things, the Force, his role as guardian of the Jedi tradition, and he's seeing what having around 50+ versions of a young him running around is doing to the galaxy. It's not working. This is why the series starts with his desire to revive the Jedi Council.

    Jacen is a younger version of what Luke is now, but he's lacking the wisdom that comes with age, and he's ignoring the politics, he isn't the guardian of the mantle, he's purely looking at what he thinks the Jedi are and what the Jedi should be. Ultimately, through his training in the series, he transcends the apparent opposites of the Force and learns to perceive the Unifying Force, achieving a larger view of the Force. Furthermore, in terms of practical action in the book, viewing the Force as a tool and a weapon doesn't work, because fighting the Yuuzhan Vong in a conventional war is fighting a war of extinction, for one side or the other. The way Luke was is not the solution to this war, and a new solution is needed, which is what Jacen finds through looking, which the Jedi weren't doing. Luke declares that the old Jedi were too involved in the Old Republic, that they lost objectivity, and that is what happened here as well. They serve all life.

    Consequently, representing the old way is what got Anakin killed, both literally and metaphorically. And we know certain people involved with the Expanded Universe were unhappy with this theme to the series, which is why the conclusions that Luke came to about the Jedi were immediately reversed in the subsequent four novels in a rather intellectually dishonest, straw man way -- and that Anakin was nearly resurrected, swapping places with Jacen, in an attempt to completely undo this message of compassion.

    As for my opinion about all this -- desiring to see Anakin brought back doesn't make sense to me nearly as much as bringing Jacen back. There are no characters like Jacen was in the NJO series. There have been plenty of characters like Anakin -- they just weren't Skywalker-Solos. Well, besides young Luke. And young Anakin Skywalker.
     
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  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I don't think that's the case, D_M, primarily because the Jedi Knights become LESS philosophical come "Legacy of the Force" and "Fate of the Jedi."

    They sit in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant...

    [​IMG]

    Waiting for disasters to happen so they can go out and solve them.

    However, that's not part of a reset button so much as fans getting a Jedi Order no one really wanted to write philosophically.

    I think you're onto something though. I think that Anakin was serenidiptously written as the most likable Solo because he was the brash hero and Young Luke, as you say. People didn't want Jacen Solo's naval gazing. It required a really HARD philosophical look at the Star Wars universe (Vergere, KOTOR2) to make that sort of stuff work and that usually ends up ticking some people off.

    Jacen dying in Star By Star would have affected people far less because people were still mad at him over Centerpoint and BP.

    I don't think there's an overarcing theme of compassion for the Vong, though.
     
  21. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    That's exactly my point though -- Denning went out of his way to straw man what Luke says in The Unifying Force into the Jedi using Force lightning and choking people telekinetically and torturing people, because this is what Vergere taught them to do! It's how they won the war!

    Then Luke realizes "oh no this is terrible, Vergere was absolutely wrong!" while Jacen drinks the koolaid. Then Vergere is revealed to be a SITH CANDIDATE and Jacen kneels before his unholy lord the dark side as Vergere TRAINED HIM TO DO.

    They purposely rolled back any character development in the New Jedi Order because Troy Denning and the editors did not like it. Denning admits this (but then he blames the editors for liking it).

    Jacen's naval gazing was essential to the resolution of the plot, so there was no way he would have died in Star by Star. If they weren't swapped, Anakin would have been the naval gazer and everyone would have hated him and loved Jacen and I would really like to peer into that universe.
     
  22. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    So... we didn't actually land on the moon, then?
     
  23. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Yes, and in this parallel universe, the prequel trilogy is really good and the original trilogy was really bad but lucrative thus permitting the prequel trilogy to be financed. And Christopher Walken is Han Solo.
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    That was Luceno, though.

    He could have resolved the Vong any way he wanted according to him.
     
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I'm not understanding your point.

    Edit: Quotes from Luceno would be appreciated, if only because I'm trying to develop as full an understanding of the thought processes behind the series as possible.