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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

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  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    The same way people refer to Darth Vader as a Jedi.

    As for the Dark Side and redemption, it's 20,000 years. If you're going to do stories with Star Wars as a theme, you have to include the movies themes. 60% of the movies themes are salvation and redemption. If you don't insert those into future comics, video games, and so on you're fundamentally contradicting what the movies are saying ABOUT the Dark Side. Portraying the Dark Side as making people irredeemable to preserve the movies would, in essence, destroy everything they stand for.

    Which is, sadly, an argument AGAINST an Expanded Universe.
     
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  2. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    People just don't like what Denning's saying about the Dark Side.

    In terms of Redemption, I always thought it was overblown. Really it doesn't happen that often, and it seems more people fail to be redeemed anyways.
     
  3. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    Death is part of the order of the Force. Denning just shows he´s forgotten RotJ. Ambition isn´t mentioned as being the DS either, but ambitious people usually have less scrupples about what they do (which is where DS is stronger than LS - they´ll do things the good guys would never do out of ethics).

    About entropy/chaos, I´ve read too much Moorcock to associate it with evil, and law/order with good. It´s not the same dicotomy. Extremes of Order vs Chaos result in stagnation (inmobility vs pulling in all directions at the same time), you need the balance to move forward. But DS is not chaos within SW. I´d say Palpatine was closer to pure order (Lawful Evil to simplify).
     
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  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    KOTOR did it best, I think. There's 200 Dark Jedi in the game.

    3 get redeemed.
     
  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Which is that it's death?

    So is the dark side of the Force.
     
  6. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    For me, I think the Dark SIde isn't synonymous with evil.

    However, 90% of evil people will be Dark Siders.

    So it's good enough for government work.

    The Light doesn't unbalance like the Dark. The Dark's like Plutonium--unhealthy. The Lights like Steel.

    Protective but not perfect.
     
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  7. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    There you go. Look at Courtship of Princess Leia. Out of all the Nightsisters not a single one was redeemed. Kueller wasn't redeemed, and neither was Brakiss. Though Luke did try.



    Which is that it's necessary for there to be change in the galaxy, and that's why it therefore exists.

    Looking back at the quote I also kind of see the whole Dark Side=Death too.
     
  8. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    3? Which ones? Bastila I know...who are the other two? (Are you counting Revan?)
     
  9. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    Bastilla, Yuthura Ban, Ajunta Pall
     
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  10. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I would say -- to use the river metaphor Denning is fond of -- the light side is like water while the dark side is like a rock. The dark side can block the flow, whereas the light side goes with it.
     
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  11. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Ah, yeah. You can tell it's been a while since I played.
     
  12. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    There's also Juhanni and the option of saving a couple of the Dark Side students at the Sith Academy--including the smarmy Draco Malfoy one. However, I'm not sure they count because they're not fully immersed in the Dark Side.
     
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  13. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    The lesbian cat girl ok, poster above remembered her name - Juhanni, several students at the sith academy, including the 2nd in command, Bastilla, a freaking sith ghost... and Darth Revan himself, in such a way that makes me think whether hitting Palpy hard enough on the head would give him also a fresh start.
     
  14. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    At the end of the day out of hundreds of Darksiders, you can redeem like 10-15 max.
     
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  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I think Revan was actually a subversion. "Yes, even a Dark Lord of the Sith can be redeemed--if you erase his memory completely and create false ones which give him a new identity."

    You know, if they do a "Starkiller" novel I'd love for he and Luke to team up.
     
  16. Mat Skywalker

    Mat Skywalker Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2005
  17. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    It was my understanding that by the end of the game, Revan had actually regained his memories, consequently the choice of endings is whether the Dark Lord of the Sith re-emerged or if the experiences he had while he was an amnesiac worked to redeem him. Fundamentally speaking, as a Jedi trying to do the right thing, from his perspective the right thing at the time he became Darth Revan was that, in order to beat the Sith Emperor at his own game -- save the galaxy by conquering it first to strengthen it.

    On the other hand, after his bout of amnesia and being placed on the Republic side of Malak's onslaught, he sees firsthand that the means aren't justified by the end, so despite having regained his memories he knows that this isn't working.

    I haven't read the novel, however.
     
  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Which part?
     
  19. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    Going by the OT, I got the idea DS corrupted your very soul (which we know exist in SW). Then again, I always thought Palpatine´s death energy wave was his soul being destroyed. Didn´t like Dark Empire much, and that was before PT showed him as a Magnificent Bastard while in DE he´s little more than a thug.
     
  20. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Charlemagne19

    I believe I told you my thoughts on a Luke and Starkiller team-up before, yes?
     
  21. Mat Skywalker

    Mat Skywalker Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2005
    So what is the "limit" (so to speak) that heroes are allowed to be during the Empire period?
     
  22. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    Going by the Bioware forums, you haven´t lost much. People use the novel as proof that Drew wouldn´t have done any better with the ending of Mass Effect. Going by what looked to be his ideas, and what I know happens in the novel, I tend to agree.
     
  23. Solent

    Solent Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2001
    Was going to answer to this, but I´ll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    If Starkiller's actions diminish Luke -- how much of a hero can you BE without hurting our heroes? How much do we keep them down to preserve the Big Three?
     
  25. aleja2

    aleja2 Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 4, 2005
    Fixed that for ya. Because a) the EU can do whatever it likes with the Force, but it is the films' depiction of it that is G-canon. If the books change it, then the books are out-of-universe and out-of-canon. Period.

    and

    b) no one here is really arguing Traitor. And Traitor pretty much presented the Force as a Socratic dialogue, with no one definitive answer. Crucible, on the other hand, tries to give the definitive, once and for all final word on the Force. And got it horribly wrong.

    B.S. that Luke doesn't do anything. Luke provides the love and the faith and the belief that Anakin Skywalker still exists. Vader would be an abject failure if Luke weren't part, and an integral one at that, of the story. Vader would have no incentive to turn, no reason to kill Palpatine, no example to follow and be redeemed by.

    The whole point of the saga (so far) is LOVE. Not the Force. But love. Selfish love, fearful love, turns Anakin dark. Selfless love, brave love, faithful love - as modeled by Luke - redeems Anakin.

    Luke is the linchpin upon which Anakin's story revolves.
     
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