main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why does the Trade Federation Invades Naboo?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    But this brings up another issue, Valorum must know that the invasion is very much real, the jedi would have told him this. In effect the TF has declared war on the republic. Why isn't he showing the same resolve as when he cut through all the red tape and sent two jedi to force a settlement?



    You forget one line, "This turn of events is unfortunate. We must accelerate our plans, Viceroy"
    To me this indicates that an invasion was always planned. If not, why did the TF brings so many battle droids? They are not needed for a blockade.


    But think about it, the TF did not want it known that they had invaded Naboo, they even protested those claims. If the treaty says that there WAS an invasion but Padme signed some paper to make it legal. If so then the TF do admit that they invaded Naboo but Padme signed a paper to make it ok.
    How would anyone thinks this is fine? A major power invades a planet and forces the ruler of the planet to sign some paper and this is all it takes to make it legal?

    But the OP asked the question why the TF invaded Naboo so we should try and see what motive they might have. Also the TF made some sort of deal with Sidous so they should be getting something out of all this. I don't doubt Sidious is using them but they are working with him, not for him. To me, there is a weakness in the film in that the TF doesn't seem to have an independent motive for what they do, they are just Sidious's goons.

    And what about Sidious? Presumable his plan was to become chancellor, altough that could also just be something he came up with on the fly but never mind.
    He gets the TF to blockade Naboo in protest over some new tax.and prevents the senate from doing anything about it. This makes the current chancellor look weak and the TF might get rid of this new tax. So far so good. But why invade? If the invasion goes as planned and Padme signs the treaty, the blockade is removed and that crisis is gone. However the tax is still there and so is Valorum.
    Why would the TF getting controll over Naboo be anymore damaging to Valorum than not being able to resolve a planetary blockade? The Tf already controls many worlds so why would one more matter. And as I said, Palpatine would loose his seat as senator.


    [/QUOTE]

    Well a veteran like Terence Stamp would cost a little more than just some no-name extra.
    Second, getting an experienced actor for small roles makes sense as they are often good at establishing their characters more quickly.
    In all, this casting seem to indicate that Valorum's role was small but important. However he gets very little to do and thus become rather uninteresting. To me this is a pity as I like the actor and there was potential with this character.

    To vw_jedi
    Are you sure about this? The TF are merchants, they buy and sell, they won't be the ones collecting taxes. If Naboo is refusing to pay it's taxes, why is the TF involved? Instead the jedi would be sent to make the Naboo pay their taxes.
    I instead got the impression that the Senate was planing for either higher/new taxes on trade routes and this meant that the TF would pay higher taxes and they didn't like that.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  2. Alessandro Sanfilippo

    Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2013
    I assume that if padme signed the treaty it would not have been an invasion, they would had called it something else. So no reason for the Senate to take action. Since it is all Legal.
     
  3. vw_jedi

    vw_jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2002
    To vw_jedi
    Are you sure about this? The TF are merchants, they buy and sell, they won't be the ones collecting taxes. If Naboo is refusing to pay it's taxes, why is the TF involved? Instead the jedi would be sent to make the Naboo pay their taxes.
    I instead got the impression that the Senate was planing for either higher/new taxes on trade routes and this meant that the TF would pay higher taxes and they didn't like that.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark[/quote]

    I get what you are saying. And in the EU it is about the blockade being to protest taxes.

    But the opening crawl of the movie is a bit more vague. And imo it implies the opposite.

    If the senate is imposing taxes, why blockade a single planet in an outlying system? How does this stop the TF from paying taxes all over the Galaxy? Especially when they are keeping the blockade a secret.
     
  4. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    It's explained quite clearly in the EU:

    Prior to TPM, as an incentive to promote more trade and commerce, the Republic decreed that there would be no taxation on goods shipped in the Outer Rim. The Trade Federation profited immensely from this, given that they no longer had to pay a portion of their profits back to the Republic. The Federation expanded and expanded and eventually gained a monopoly on Outer Rim shipping.

    But as a provision of the law, in order to prevent the Federation from becoming aggressive, they were extremely limited on what sorts of defenses they could have aboard their ships. The Federation therefore became the targets of pirates and privateers, and after having several of their shipments stolen from them, they appealed to the Republic to allow them to augment their defenses. Valorum (via Palpatine's coercion), suggested that the Federation could be allowed to rearm itself if the Outer Rim taxes were reinstated. The Federation naturally opposed having to pay those taxes, so, at Palpatine's directive, chose to blockade Naboo in order to protest the new taxation.

    That's just a brief summary of the state of things in regards to taxation. For a more complete story, I suggest reading the novel Cloak of Deception.
     
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Valorum sent the Jedi in secret, the Senate didn't know anything about that. If he were to corroborate Amidala's accusation, he could be accused of working against the senate (or behind its back). That's why he didn't say anything when the TF senator claimed that there is no proof.

    Quite right. But again, I believe the invasion was more on Sidious interest than the TF.

    No, they would be admitting that the Queen let the TF "invade" the planet, not that they invaded and only asked for a treaty later.

    As corrupted as the senate was (where blockading an whole planet was legal), I wouldn't be surprised if this passed through. After all, Gunray said that himself.

    But since they are working with Sidious, we can't ignore the influence he has behind all this.

    Indeed.

    But they are Sidious' goons. This is another assumption of mine, by I believe they originally planned to blockade the planet due to taxations but Sidious came along and promised them something more in return of taking over the planet.

    The tax is still there but now they are in charge of an whole planet. And the crisis isn't gone because supposedly the TF wouldn't be to keen in making the lives of the Naboo that much pleasant. The suffering of Palpatine's people could help him gain some support in the senate.

    Do they? They may may control the trading of certain planets that agreed to be part of the Federation, but I doubt they own one.

    I didn't find him uninteresting, but that's a matter of opinion. I guess Lucas tried to make Valorum an important character on screen despite the short screen time (after all, they can't show/expand everything), and there so better way than using a veteran actor for the job.
     
  6. Loupgarou

    Loupgarou Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2010
    The actor doesn't by default, it just makes it even less understandable that the character was so under-utilized. He's literally the Crux of the bad guy's whole scheme and yet we barely see him.
     
  7. Alessandro Sanfilippo

    Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2013
    What happened to Valorum after he was fired?
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
  9. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Wrong.
     
  10. Alessandro Sanfilippo

    Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2013
    As I recall it, Taxes where lifted on the outer rim, to make the outer rim prosperus. This made the trade federation very rich and powerful.
    But the law that lifted the taxes also banned the ships from having powerful wepons.
    Trade federation ships where raided by pirates.
    They asked the senate to let them have better wepons on their ships to defend themselves.
    Senate responded said they could have better wepons on their ships but, that they would had to put the taxes back on the trade routes.
    Taxes where placed
    Trade federation now has to pay taxes so they are Earning less money.
    they get pissed, and blockade naboo in order for the senate to elimante taxes and let them have better wepons on their ships. In order to defend themselves from pirates.

    Apologize for Spelling
     
  11. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Yes, basically. That's from the novel "Labyrinth of Evil."
     
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Two things,
    1) No-one in the movie makes says anything that indicates that Valorum has broken the law or anything like that. If this was such a serious thing then Palpatine has his chance to get rid of him,
    Simply have the TF tell the Jedi to **** off, and inform the senate of Valorums actions and bang, Valorum gone. But he didn't so that suggest to me this wasn't very serious.
    2) As I said, the TF has declared WAR on the republic by attacking and invading Naboo.
    The same the republic that has no army but the TF does. For all Valorum knows, this could be just the first attack. Now compare galactic civil war with a supposed breach of procedure. Which is more serious?

    Yet they still agreed to it, Nute even called it "Victory" after it was over.

    But they say that the treaty would make the invasion legal so that still sounds they will admit that there was an actual invasion. If they mean that the treaty says that Naboo has now joined the TF, why not say that? It doesn't make the invasion legal, it just means there is a military presence on Naboo as Naboo is now a part of the TF.

    But even in our world, a treaty or contract signed under duress or threat isn't considered legal. Doesn't the republic have any safeguards against this type of behavior?


    Yes but it would be nice if they had some motivation on their own.
    Ex. In ESB Boba Fett is working for Vader because of the bounty Vader has placed on the MF.
    But he also has his own motive, he wants the bounty on Han that Jabba has put up. He even risks confronting Vader over it. So he works for Vader but we understand why and he has his own goals as well.


    For myself I doubt they would be so bold on their own. They are shown as cowards on many occasions.
    And again, how does taking over Naboo get rid of the new tax, which is what the TF wants?

    Why would the TF want to torture the Naboo people? They starve the people to get Padme and the other leaders to submit. Once they have gotten total control, why go out of their way to be cruel?
    The TF are business men, why create a reputation as cruel monsters for no reason?
    They want to buy and sell stuff, being known as cruel tortures is counter productive to that.
    Also, as I've said, Palpatine could loose his seat to the TF guy, Lott Dodd?

    Tatooine was the only planet they could go to that didn't have a presence by the TF. That suggest they control or at least have a significant presence on many worlds.
    Also this;

    So it does seem the TF controls many worlds so why would another matter?


    [/QUOTE]

    But even a veteran actor needs something to work with, Valorum does practically nothing.
    He says hello to Padme, then has a few lines in the senate. That's it.
    As Loupgarou said, his removal is the main motivation of the bad guy.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    A simple blockade isn't as bad as it seems. An invasion with the Federation taking control of the ruling government, on the other hand, is and using the law to their advantage would show that Valorum doesn't have the guts to deal with matters of great importance.

    Because Palpatine's plan includes starting a war. The war is dependent on creating an opposing force that needs to be dealt with and is viewed as a threat. The invasion goes beyond a blockade because not only would Palpatine become Chancellor, but he will make an enemy out of the Trade Federation for those that side with the Republic, while those that join the Confederacy will support the Federation's cause. What was to happen next was for Palpatine to make his case for no confidence, which would remove Valorum and then lead Palpatine to manipulate the Senate into backing the resolution to end the crisis, while setting the stage for the Clone Wars.

    No, they are working for him. They wouldn't have done anything that was done without the Sith's involvement. That's why Qui-gon said to Obi-wan that the Federation would fold like a deck of cards, once the negotiations began and why he later said that their motives make little sense. Had the Sith chosen to not make their move, the Federation would have sat on their hands and let the Republic tear their organization apart, thanks to the taxation laws. What they would get out of it was support for their cause and Sidious would claim that he would make sure that the taxation laws go away, so that they could retain their free enterprise.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Palpatine didn't say anything because he has to play the part of a simple Senator, whose homeworld was invaded. He knew there were going to be ambassadors, but he had to pretend as Sidious that he didn't know and thus order their deaths. The Trade Federation could tell the Jedi to go away, but that wouldn't stop them. Look at why they were there. Valorum wanted them to end the crisis immediately. When they were attacked, the Jedi responded and had the Droidekas not been part of their arsenal, Qui-gon would have gotten through the blast doors and force a surrender as part of their aggressive negotiations.

    It's not a declaration of war, which is the point in making it legally binding.

    Because he doesn't know that there's more to the plan than he's been told. He thinks that all that is left is to sign the treaty and that's that.

    Obviously not. Which is just another example of how corrupt the Senate had become over the last thousand years.

    Their motivation is greed. Pure and simple. It's well established that people avoid paying taxes, most often because they're greedy.

    They do as Lord Sidious tells them to do, or face his wrath.

    He wouldn't lose his seat because he's after the bigger chair. He would use this to show that the Senate has failed as has the current Chancellor, thus a vote of no confidence is issued. Valorum gets removed, Palpatine is nominated and wins because the previous Chancellor allowed all this to happen. Then as Chancellor, Palpatine moves on to phase two.
     
  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Palpatine himself needs to do nothing. If valorum had broken the law by sending the jedi, as Sidious he could get the TF guy to make this accusation in the senate while telling Nute to tell the jedi to leave. Not kill them. If the jedi are infomred that Nute will not see them and they are asked to leave, why would they fight? They would just go back to the senate.



    Really? So if the Soviet Union, in the days of the Cold war, had invaded and conquered Hawai, the USA would not view that as a declaration of war?
    Valorum KNOWS that the TF has attacked and conquered a republic world without provocation. This is war, any way you slice it. So the situation has grown far beyond a blockade, now the TF is the enemy of the republic.


    One wonders how they can even function when their laws is that screwed up.

    But why would any want to side with the TF? The TF invaded a defencless world, that hardly makes them sympathetic.
    Second, the clone war is due to some planets/systems that want to leave the republic.
    If the republic is a corrupt as you say, then that is all Palpatine needs to create the seps.
    Have systems that are fed up with the ineffective and corrupt system declare their intentions to leave and have the senate use force to stop them. Now we have war.
    .

    [/QUOTE]

    But the original plan was for Naboo to be invaded, the treaty signed and all the senate would know about is that Naboo has signed some treaty with the TF, the invasion would not be known. Unless the treaty mentions it but then the TF is really stupid. They deny that an invasion happens but want Padme to sign a paper where it says they did invade her planet.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Valorum sent the Jedi to check it out and settle the matter. It wasn't illegal, but rather the Senate wasn't informed of this decision as they would debate about doing so, further drawing out the situation. The Jedi do have the authority from the Senate to settle any and all disputes with regards to blockades. Palpatine orders them to be terminated because he knows that they won't back down, but instead force a settlement. This is backed up when Anakin told Padme that the Jedi will negotiate peacefully and when that fails, they take a sterner hand. Unlike Senate representatives, the Jedi will see to matters personally.

    Right now, there is no attack. It's just a blockade as far as the Senate is aware of. Because of the forced communications blackout, the government of Naboo cannot contact the Senate for help. The Jedi made their report to Valorum and then to the Council, while Padme was getting ready to discuss this in the Senate. Valorum was then prepared to take matters in hand, but Mas Amedda, Lott Dodd and Aks Moe stopped that. Valorum doesn't have the testecular fortitude to say, "Screw it". Palpatine did, which is why he got elected. That's the point.

    Why do you think the Republic fell? Plagueis and Sidious both knew that the Senate was ripe for picking, which is why the plan was put together as it was. This is why the Jedi were behind the gun when it came to the Sith's actions, because they were doing things differently.

    That's what happened. The systems that joined the Confederacy did so because a good chunk were long time associates of the Trade Federation, the Intergalactic Banking Clan, the Corporate Alliance and more. The ten thousand systems that Dooku was rallying to his cause, were those who disagreed with the Senate's conduct over the last couple of dozen years. They agreed with how the Senate was picking on the Confederacy leadership, with all the various laws and regulations being put in place. Meanwhile, the systems loyal to the Republic were convinced that the CIS was going to be a problem and that growing fear translated into giving up their say in matters, to the Senate and to the Chancellor himself.
    .

    Signing the treaty means that they have the right to decide Naboo's fate. Palpatine, though, would bring evidence to light that it was through the inaction of the current Chancellor that the invasion occurred and that it was signed under duress. This would then give him the sympathy vote to replace Valorum and then he would order the removal of the Federation. You keep ignoring that Sidious is playing both sides against each other. He was always going to betray the Federation. Treachery is the way of the Sith.
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the TPM movie, Palpatine tells Amidala that Valorum is "mired in baseless accusations of corruption".

    The EU elaborated on this and on the consequences.

    Specifically, in Darth Plagueis, shortly before the events of TPM begin (p420):

    Valorum closed his eyes and exhaled. "Whoever is behind this machination wants nothing more than to destroy my legacy entirely; to make the name Valorum seem a stain on history ..."

    "Then we must double our efforts to exonerate you," Palpatine said.

    Valorum laughed without amusement. "I'm useless to the Republic if we can't. Until the matter is resolved, I'm prohibited from sanctioning the use of Jedi or Judicials to intervene in disputes. I'm not permitted to convene special sessions without the express consent of this new vice chancellor, Mas Amedda, who blocks my every proposal and venerates procedure as if it were holy text."

    "Deception begins with bureaucracy," Palpatine said.
     
  18. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Specifically, the corruption scandal was elaborated upon in Cloak of Deception. In the beginning of the novel, a Trade Federation shipment of aurodium ingots was stolen by pirates. And then towards the end of the novel, a company in which Valorum was an investor received a substantial investment - one that was exactly the same as the value of the ingots stolen from the Federation. An investigation proved that Valorum had no knowledge of the transaction and did not personally profit from it, but the damage to Valorum's reputation was irreparable.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Indeed. The point being that when Valorum sent out the Jedi, it was at a time that he'd been banned from doing so. Plagueis comments on how he's putting his head in the noose, so to speak.

    The Jedi may have done so in order to show solidarity with him.
     
  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Earlier I asked why Valorum didn't call the jedi as wtinesses to the invasion. The answer I got was that he did not dare because him sending the jedi was apparently illegal or something like that.
    So either him sending the jedi was so against the rules that he could not call them as witnesses.
    If so, Palpatine could use that info to get rid of him.
    Or it wasn't illegal in which case him not calling the jedi makes no sense.
    And even if it was illegal, considering that the republic is now at war, that should take precedence over a simple matter or procedure.

    When the jedi return to Coruscant there is very much an attack, the TF have invaded and conquered a whole planet. War has begun.
    And again, Valorum said "screw it" and sent the jedi to settle the dispute at the start of TPM. Why did he all of a sudden get so timid? Esp in light of the far more serious threat and that war has started.
    And why wasn't the jedi more interested in this? War has broken out and they could be called to fight in it. Did Qui-Gon offer to appear in the senate as a witness?


    If the jedi are unaware that the republic laws are so messed up that they have no safe guards against treaties and contracts signed under duress then they are very behind indeed.
    It also diminishes Palpatines achievement, if the senate is this bad, any half-way competent bad guy could topple it.


    Except the films don't establish that the TF were long time associates with anyone. What the ten thousand systems thought is likewise never explained. We known next to nothing about new rules and laws. The only thing we know is that the TF didn't like paying taxes.
    Also in TPM, the confederacy didn't exist nor do we know that the senate did anything in particular to them.
    What the seps really wanted in never explained in the films. It seems that they want to leave the republic but even that is questionable. They talk about attacking the repiblic and make the senate do what ever they want. maybe they plan on becoming the new rulers of the republic?


    [/QUOTE]

    And almost nothing of this is in the actual film. We don't know for sure that the vote of no conficence was always the plan. It could be something that he came up with on the fly.
    Nor do we know that he planned to let the senate know about the invasion. Everything he did ran counter to that. Once he knew that Padme had escaped, why try to stop her? If he wanted the senate to know about the invasion then Padme escaping fits his plans perfectly. But instead he send Maul after her and still tries with the treaty thing. For that matter, why send Maul to Naboo after the vote has happened? He got what he wanted, what happens to the TF and Padme is irrelevant now.
    He could tell the TF to expect her and then they would not send their ships away and those ships could then interecept her ship before it lands. No need for Maul. Or he could not bother with the whole thing and not send Maul. Maul in a way blew it, he showed himself to the Jedi but the jedi got away to warn the others that the Sith are back. So why send Maul when it isn't really needed and he could suspect that the jedi might try to catch him?

    His original plan could be that with the vote of Naboo going to the TF, he could simply vote Valorum out.
    Or he planned to have the TF conquer the republic and kill the jedi but the poor performance of the droid army changed his mind.
    We don't know because very little is ever said in the films.

    In closing, people have brought up lots of stuff from books. To me, this indicates that the film did a poor job in telling the story if the audience has to read one or several books in order to understand why the characters do what they do.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Let's break this down.

    1. Palpatine has to earn a sympathy vote. He has to come out of this looking like he's the saint and Valorum is the loser that he is. He isn't going to go, "Oh you did this illegally", because that goes against logic. Palpatine has to play the part of the injured party, who would welcome the help of the Jedi. If this were any other system that he has no jurisdiction over, then he would have used that to get Valorum out. But he didn't do that. He wants the sympathy required to get what he wants.

    2. You are right, that matters should have taken precedence, but that's the point as well. Take what's going on in the real world. President Obama wanted to launch a strike against Syria, but wanted the approval of Congress, which he was in danger of not getting. He could have gone against that, but didn't because he wanted their support and because of how the office of the President and the Congress was forged over two hundred years ago. To prevent one man from having all the power. The Republic was based off of that and in the time period of the PT, it was being manipulated by Palpatine to his advantage, in an effort to sway public opinion in favor of a dictatorship. Something which has happened in the real world. Lucas was inspired by Germany, France and Rome. You should read up on them.

    Because he didn't have the stones to do what was necessary, which is why Palpatine played the hand that he did. He knew that Valorum was weak and ineffective as a leader. He pointed that out to Padme, which caused her to call for the no confidence vote. That's why he talked about it in his office, why he told her about Valorum's lack of courage and then smiled when she said that. He even says afterwards that he would bring stability back to the Republic and sort out the corruption.

    The Jedi were interested, but they were following their centuries old mandate of working with the Senate, rather than operating on their own. They weren't going to send 212 Jedi to settle the matter on Naboo. Ten years later, they wait for Palpatine to gain Emergency Powers before going to Geonosis and Kamino. Qui-gon didn't testify, because he wasn't supposed to. He gave his report to the Chancellor and the Council.


    Oh, they knew. It wasn't their place to force change. That's the way of the Sith. Their job was to defend the Republic from threats from within and without.

    But none had the vision that he had, in order to achieve this. Nor the resources that the Sith had built up over a thousand years. The Force is on the Jedi's side, normally and they would have sensed the treachery and put a stop to it, before it got too far. But because it is the Sith and the Force is going out of balance, the Jedi were blind to Palpatine's true goals.


    TPM established that there were planets that were friendly to the Federation and that they had a presence. Tatooine wasn't one of those worlds, because the Hutts controlled it and thus the Jedi and the Naboo royalty could hide there.

    It's pretty obvious what they thought if they were to join the Confederacy against the Republic. You don't just join a side in a war, for ***** and giggles.

    What Dooku said was that the Republic would cave to their demands, because they didn't have an army to fight against them, aside from the Jedi. The planned assault would be akin to a terrorist attack. "Abolish the taxation laws and let us have what we wanted ten years ago and that will be that, or we'll burn down your house."

    It was his plan. Palpatine wanted to be Chancellor and he had to do it this way, rather than doing it like Darth Ruin and his Sith did two thousand years ago. And when Sidious talks about plans going to his design, it kinda tells you want he was thinking of.

    You are forgetting that Palpatine is playing two different roles here, of which one of his identities is only known to his Apprentices and his Master. As Darth Sidious, he has to play the part of the aggressive conqueror who wants the Federation and later the Confederacy to fight a war against the Republic, in order to gain a victory that is beneficial to them. As Palpatine, he is playing the role of the kindly Senator turned Chancellor who has everyone fooled until he drops the bomb on everyone. That's what a dual identity is. It's like Superman. As Superman, Kal-El says that he never lies, but as Clark Kent, he's lying to everyone with his disguise and excuses for his disappearances. As Clark Kent, he has to pretend to be an ordinary guy, while as Superman he has to put on this public persona of an ideal superhero who fights crime and saves lives. He has to convince people that he is two different men. The Dark Lord of the Sith did the same thing. You're confused because you're thinking of them as two separate personas, and not as one single person. You don't need the novelizations, or the EU books that expanded upon things. It is all right there in the films.
     
  22. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Poor old Volorum.
     
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Again who says Palpatine has to do anything? He has loads of cronies in the senate. Anyone of them can bring up how the chancellor abused his power and must be stopped. If he is already weakened by accusations of corruption then why not add being power hungry as well?
    In AotC Palpatine loved to play the "I love democracy" card, if he can get Valorum to appear as a power grabbing dictator, that would be enough to remove him.
    Add to this, he can make the jedi appear shady as they secretly work with the chancellor in violation of laws and rules. Win-win.


    You are overlooking a rather important detail, with Syria, the US hasn't been attacked and invaded.
    The republic has been attacked and an invasion has begun.
    After 9/11 Bush didn't have to work very hard in convincing not just the US but many other countries to attack Afghanistan. Do you really think that if Hawaii was conquered by another power that the congress and the president would refuse to act?
    Take the Falklands when Argentina attacked them, Thatcher went to war almost immediately.
    And after Pearl Harbor, did the US still remain outside WW2? No.

    In any event, Valorum knows the republic has been attacked and it was within his power to call one of the jedi as witnesses to this. That is hardly an abuse of his power or an attempt at dictatorship.
    If sending the jedi was such an abuse of power, how did he expect it to remain hidden? If the jedi had succeeded and forced a settlement then that would become known and Valorum obviously thought the risk of that was worth sending the jedi and putting an end to this.
    Here the conflict is much bigger and calling the jedi as witnesses makes all the sense and isn't nearly as big a gamble as sending them without permission.
    And why doesn't Padme ever bring up calling the Jedi as witnesses?

    Why is calling a Jedi as a witness such a hardship for Valorum? He sent two jedi without asking the senate for permission so that shows he has drive and initiative. He cut through all the BS and red tape and sent two jedi to sort out this mess. But now he is suddenly afraid to blow his own nose.

    If the senate doesn't act, the TF could attack other worlds maybe even conquering Coruscant itself.
    It is in Valorums interest that the senate act against the TF.


    The jedi could do other things than just sending jedi to attack and where did you get 212 from? I got the sense that in TPM the jedi were nowhere near as busy as they were in AotC.
    The jedi could for example ask to have Qui-Gon to appear in the senate as a witness. Or they could demand an explanation of the TF as to why they tried to have two of their members murdered.
    And the jedi sure didn't seem concerned that after the TF had declared war on the republic, the senate still refused to act and instead removed it's leader. The TF could be attacking many other worlds and yet this did not seem to worry them in the slightest.

    TPM established that the TF CONTROLLED many other planets. Many enough that from Naboo, Tatooine was apparently the only planet they could reach that the TF didn't control. I would imagine this would be quite a number.
    And again this doesn't say that the Banking clan were friendly with the TF. We don't know if it even existed in TPM.


    Since the republic didn't have an army or any soldiers, those others could just join so they can loot and plunder the helpless republic. Or Dooku just did the mind trick on them. We don't know what they want or why they join because the film never says. They are just a collection of random bad guys that fight the republic for some reason.

    Again that is never said, maybe they instead they were planning to carve the republic into little pieces and them being the absolute rulers over each bit. What the seps want and what demands they have are never said.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wrong, I am well aware of this, I am just looking at his actions and tries to make logical sense of them based on what you say his motives are.
    You say that P/S plan was all along that the invasion would become known to the senate and this would make Valorum look weak and he would be gone and P/S could take over.
    Ok, let's assume this.
    In this scenario, Padme escaping Naboo fits his plan like a glove. She will certainly come to Coruscant and appeal to the senate to act against this invasion. If he knows that Valorum won't act then he has now the perfect way to get rid of him. So it is in his best interest that Padme get to Coruscant to present her case.
    But does he do this? No. Instead he send Maul to capture Padme, bring her back to Naboo and force her to sign the treaty.
    As Sidious he could scold the TF for letting Padme escape and he could pretend to send someone after her. But it was totally unnecessary to send Maul after her and the TF would not know if he did or not. Maul knows that he is Palpatine and knows about the ultimate goal so he won't mind either.
    When Padme was planning to go back to Naboo, P/S could just let the TF know she was coming and they could catch her before she could land, again no need to involve Maul.

    So what P/S does runs counter to what you say his plan actually is.
    Not sending Maul would benefit his plans more than sending him.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Okay, you're just turning this into what-if, because you don't like the plot that he put forward.


    It's a little different in the Republic. Each system has their own governments. The Senate is like the UN.

    Again, Valorum isn't that strong a political leader. He's useless. He's so worried about his political stance that he doesn't man up and do what needs to be done, which is what Palpatine used as his platform.

    Because she was following Palpatine's lead.

    Now you see why Palpatine won.


    The Jedi are always busy with something. 212 is the number of Jedi that were at the Temple at all times, whenever an emergency would arise.

    But they weren't attacking other worlds, because they only went to Naboo and sat there for days, before the Jedi were deployed. As far as the Jedi were concerned, there was only Naboo and they couldn't do anything without getting the Chancellor in trouble. Testifying wouldn't help because Dodd would accuse the Jedi of lying, or at least exaggerating.

    All of those businesses existed before TPM. And control is broad word.


    Because it's about money and power, and their distaste for the corrupt Republic.

    It is said. "All those who have power are afraid to lose it." The Republic threatens to take away their power, the Confederacy fights to keep it.

    Palpatine didn't want Padme to come to Coruscant, which is why he sent Maul to Tatooine to eliminate the Jedi and the ship's crew, then take her back to Naboo. But because of Anakin, this plan fails and Palpatine shifts into plan B, which is use Padme as a character witness, rather than rely on the treaty. When she leaves for Naboo, he orders Maul to go there to eliminate the Jedi and make sure that she doesn't succeed before he's elected. Nute, unaware of what's going on, chooses to follow the plan that he was told about.
     
  25. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    You're right, TPM didn't do a fantastic job at telling its story. But since the EU is a part of the same ongoing saga, there's nothing wrong with the EU explaining things that the film doesn't make clear. It's all Star Wars.