PT George Lucas, Post-ROTJ, states beautifully why the Prequels were necessary

Even if he couldn't (though I don't believe this for a second), he didn't have to participate. But he did.

And -- as my Nuremberg example shows -- he was at least partially responsible. Vader was no foot soldier. He had power and influence.

 

He didn't participate. The only participants were Tarkin and the laser-controllers.

 

Why would Vader want to stop it? This is a guy who slaughtered an entire Tusken Raider village and then three years later, helped kill the people that he had known for thirteen years, before choking his pregnant wife in a fit of rage. Standing by as Alderaan was destroyed was not an issue for him. Vader stops feeling guilt until he and Luke have their first duel on Cloud City.

 

I recognize that. I was just puzzled that Garrett Atkins was saying that after what Anakin/Vader did in ROTS, he was irredeemable. I find that a bit odd because I can't see how what he did in ROTS is worse than in ANH, personally.

 

How is holding down and cornering Leia while Tarkin blackmails her with the threat of the loss of her planet not participation?

 

He held her back the second before her planet was destroyed.

 

You can see Tarkin back Leia into Vader as he says he grows weary. Vader was actively helping Tarkin. He didn't hole up in briefing room while this was going on...

 

I have no idea what you're talking about now...

 

Can't remember - could have been a Character Guide article of some kind on Vader.

However, in the Death Star novel - there's at least one paragraph hinting that Vader's there to ensure Sidious's wishes are carried out:

Tarkin took a few steps toward him. Vader could sense that the governor's anger had got the better of him "Terminate her! Immediately!"

Unseen under his helmet, Vader's tight features formed a painful grin. He understood Tarkin's anger - after all, he himself was a master of anger - but Princess Leia Organa might better serve them alive. He would consider the matter. Tarkin could not order, only suggest various courses and actions to him, and he was not averse to going along with those suggestions most of the time, since they didn't truly matter. But Darth Vader bowed to no one's wishes save those of his Master, the Dark Lord of the Sith. Should his Master's wishes and Tarkin's collide, Tarkin would be swept away with the rest of history's dust without a second's hesitation.

 

Leia comes in with Vader. When she refuses to tell Tarkin the location of the rebel base, Vader helps Tarkin to intimidate her -- he walks up to her and smashes her up between himself and Vader saying he is getting weary of her not telling him what he wants to know.

 

And what does that have to do with Vader...

 

Aside from Tarkin's extra bit of rank, I see the dynamic between the two as not far different from between Vader and Moff Jerjerrod in RoTJ. Vader is the Emperor's "wrist-hawk" - the Emperor's enforcer, the guy the Emperor sends to make sure that his subordinates don't get out of line.

 

Because you are saying there was nothing Vader could have done to stop the destruction of Alderaan, although there's no evidence that he was helpless. My point was that not only did Vader not even try to prevent in Alderaan's destruction, he actively helped Tarkin.

 

The whole thing had been discussed beforehand (at least in The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader) - and it makes sense that Vader would be in on what Tarkin was planning:

"I think it's time we demonstrated the full power of this station," Tarkin said. Turning to Motti, he commanded, "Set your course for Alderaan."
"With pleasure," Motti replied with an evil smile.
Realizing what Tarkin intended, Vader surveyed the man with new respect. The Dark Lord had done many horrendous and unpardonable things, but it seemed that Tarkin- at least in this situation- was even more diabolically inventive. However, Vader had one problem with Tarkin's scheme. "Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems," Vader said. "The Emperor should be consulted."
"Do not think to challenge me!" Tarkin snapped. "You are not confronting Tagge or Motti now! The Emperor has placed me in charge of this affair with a free hand, and the decision is mine! And you will have your information that much sooner."
Vader had long suspected that Grand Moff Tarkin was insane, but it was not until Tarkin had addressed him just then, without a trace of fear, that Vader was left without a doubt. Vader said, "If your plan serves our purpose, it will justify itself."
"The stability of the Empire is at stake," Tarkin said. "A planet is a small price to pay."

 

The one thing that ROTS teaches us (and people seem to forget, or ignore) is that the continuous use of the power of the dark side corrupts the mind so quickly and is so addictive that one isn't able to control him or herself when committing acts of aggression.

 

Yes, that book (my favorite EU book, probably), is the reason I think Vader shouldn't be held responsible. He kinda thought it wasn't a good idea, so I have that in my personal canon.

 

No, that's Tarkin. Vader doesn't say anything at all. He doesn't speak again until the conference room scene when Tarkin learns that Leia lied to them, in spite of the threat to Alderaan.

 

Thinking something isn't a good idea but helping an insane person carry out their plan doesn't remove your responsibility, though.

 

He may not have thought it was a particularly good idea, but he went along with it.

The Death Star version of that scene is slightly different:

Death Star
"I think it's time we demonstrated the full power of this station," Tarkin said. He looked back at his officer. "Set your course for Alderaan."
The man mumbled something and left, but Tarkin was already thinking ahead. If Princess Leia was a thorn in the Empire's side, then Alderaan was a forest of thorns.
Well, it was time to purge that forest. With fire.
Tagge started to say something but apparently thought better of it. Tarkin smiled almost benignly and said, "I understand your concerns, General. Rest assured I've spoken with Emperor Palpatine recently about demonstrating his battle station's range and strength. He has assured me that I have full rein to do so." He looked at Vader. "You disapprove, Lord Vader?"
"Not at all, Governor."​

 

You took my quote out of context. What I originally said was:

Leia comes in with Vader. When she refuses to tell Tarkin the location of the rebel base, Vader helps Tarkin to intimidate her -- he walks up to her and smashes her up between himself and Vader saying he is getting weary of her not telling him what he wants to know.

"he walks up to her and smashes her up between himself and Vader saying he is getting weary of her not telling him what he wants to know"

Clearly, the "he" here is Tarkin, although my apologies for not making that clearer.

 

According to the new Brian Wood Star Wars comic book (set 2 months after ANH), the bruises Vader's grip left on Leia's arms in that scene took weeks to fade.

The Emperor has removed Vader from his post as Supreme Commander after the loss at Yavin, and pointedly reminds him of his failure in the comic.

 

This thread alone demonstrates why the EU is beyond worthless. It's a great scene in the movie and it's fun to debate what was going on behind the scenes between Vader and Tarkin without silly, half-rate writers forcing contradictory (not to mention ridiculous) explanations down our throats.

As for the matter at hand, the movie makes is apparent Vader certainly shares some culpability for the destruction of Alderaan. The exact nature of his relationship with Tarkin is unclear, but he certainly doesn't protest when Tarkin makes his diabolical plans known.

 

To me, redemption implies a good/positive act that is roughly equal to the bad/negative act that preceded it. In Vader/Anakin's case, I don't think killing Palpatine to save his son redeems him from all the atrocities he was a part of from ROTS to ROTJ.

 

Lucas might have been going for a more Christian notion of redemption, perhaps. In that sense, it's not about doing a good act equal to the bad acts you've done but repenting of your sins, seeking salvation, and trying to atone in whatever manner you can. Given that Anakin's atonement causes him to die, well, one can argue that it fits the parameters.

I've always felt, though, that redemption isn't liking balancing a bank account. Even if you save someone's life, that won't bring back the person you've killed. You can't take away their loved ones' pain at the loss. Redemption is more about admitting to your wrongdoing and then acting in a manner that rescinds your previous actions -- even if you can never truly make up for them. My thoughts on the matter, anyway.

I do think that Lucas was right about Luke being validated, though, in that it was Luke's faith in his father that saved his life and, ultimately, the galaxy.

 

This. Whether or not we as an audience can forgive Anakin for everything he's done is irrelevant. Lucas isn't asking us to do that. The power or Vaders "redemption" comes solely from the idea that a man so far gone in darkness, a cold, ruthless villain, can find his heart again, and experience compassion. Take away all the spaceships and lightsabers and aliens, and that concept is still amazing to behold.