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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Palpatine was better in ROTJ. There he lost his composure once, when he couldn't help but goad Luke into killing Vader. But before that everything was just acting to provoke Luke.

    In ROTS however there is no purpose for his yelling and grimacing to Yoda. He is only doing it for his personal amusement, nothing more. When the mask he is wearing is pulled off, it is revealed he is nothing more than a maniac child with no real self-discipline.
     
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  2. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    I agree with most of what you're saying, but I personally don't have a problem with big E Evil characters. I've become a fan of portraying essences in narrative. I don't really want to relate to every villain because I don't think all villains should be redeemable, or even understandable. Sometimes Evil just is. So I agree that Anakin should have had an arc more like Luke, but I disagree that Palpatine needed anything like that in the main Saga. The EU or the solo films is a better place for it.
     
  3. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I get that it's something you wanted to see.. namely the 'why' as opposed to the 'how'. I just don't agree that because we don't see that detail that it's an empirical flaw in the way Sidious is drawn/portrayed. I also agree that the term 'evil' is a social construct and is a notion I don't personally ascribe to i.e. that people are born evil. However, we do have to take into account that we're discussing a piece of fiction and not a documentary... as mentioned before Richard III and Iago are still brilliant and archetypal 'villains' despite their lack of motive other than 'power' and 'evil'. Hannibal Lecter, Captain Bligh, Tommy Devito, Little Bill Daggett are other brilliantly drawn cinematic villains that just do what they do... and similarly, have blurred moral values i.e. they don't think of themselves as being 'evil' or 'bad'... and this for me is why the PT has added a lot more layers to Palpatine - he believes he's actually improving things for the galaxy - it's not just about revenge, or bringing chaos... but about bringing order and a new philosophical doctrine - whereas in ROTJ he's more of a a moustache twirling, know it all villain.
     
  4. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Palps was the embodiment of chaos much like the Joker in TDK.
     
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  5. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    That's being a tad selective... as apart from the fight with Yoda, Palpatine (when he had his true face) is pretty much played like the Emperor from ROTJ. Calm and measured.
     
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  6. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    Charles Baxter, a great writer on literary fiction, has a great essay called Maps and Legends of Hell: Notes on Melodrama where he basically argues against the modernist psychological model that's been dominant the past 80+ years that demands that all characters have "reasons" for what they're doing (this presupposes that people always act with reasons or motivations they can understand). And he particularly believes this is true when it comes to villains, and one of his great examples is the same one Darth PJ used, which I like a lot, Iago. What makes him a great villain is that his hatred for Othello is inexplicable. That mysterious hatred says a lot more about the human condition than does some psychological realist motivation like "his mom was mean to him."

    About character arcs. I have different views on them depending on what medium we're talking about. In literature and in avant garde forms I'm against the traditional model that demands that characters must always change, and that this change is usually a positive one. For me, this is highly ideological and it doesn't reflect reality as I know it. I'm more of a fan of something David Strauss calls the Chekovian arc, which is something that would have served Anakin well in the PT. This sort of arc has movement, but it's a more complex movement than the traditional realist arc, which is very schematically put as character A wants something, learns how to get it, and then changes some internal aspect of themselves so they can get the thing they want. With the Chekovian arc, people backslide on their internal progressions, slipping back into old patterns and behaviors that the reader thought they'd overcome.

    But arcs do have everything to do with internal movement, and the external space they do it in is simply the vehicle for that interiority to be challenged and shift. If there is no interior that progresses, regresses, or does both multiple times (a good structure for a farce), then it's incorrect to call the arc a character arc. Just expressing a character's personality is not an arc or a kind of movement; it's just a portrayal of a certain personality type. Which is fine, one dimensional or "flat" characters are an important part of narrative. They help tell the story while the protagonist is meant to portray the richer internal journey most people supposedly experience.

    In regards to film, or at least, popular entertainment like Star Wars, the traditional character arc worked pretty well in ANH. And although it is cliché, when done well, it can be powerful, as the ending of ANH shows with Luke and Han.

    The problem with a lot of films isn't that they're doing a traditional character arc -- actually most "popular" films today have abandoned the traditional internal arc in favor of spectacle -- but that when they do the arc, they do it poorly and it feels forced. The big problem in Hollywood today is that most writers are so poorly trained and in it for the money, they only care about spectacle, or exciting external events. Boom, boom, boom! That sort of thing, which often feels empty because it lacks what most people think of as "humanity."

    Personally, I would love a more complex arc in the ST, but I also think it's not necessary. If we have any kind of internal arc at all, the only thing I hope for is that it's well done.
     
  7. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    Palpatine sees an Orwellian galaxy as "peace".
     
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  8. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Dang, I missed this scene! Was it added to the Blu Ray release?
     
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  9. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    ROTJ Palpatine was the best.
     
  10. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Some one-dimensional characters can be intriguing, but Palpatine is not one of them, as he isn't even scary. Also if you have an important character in five movies (instead of one), a completely static personality will get old quickly.

    What Charles Baxter writes doesn't help me enjoy Palpatine more.
     
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  11. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    When I say Palpatine cares for Anakin I don't mean in the normal way you or I would care for someone. We must remember that Palpatine is still evil to the core so he sees things very differently than we would. But I wholeheartedly believe he cares for Anakin in his own way. The way I see it Palpatine loves power in all its forms and so he finds a kind of kindred spirit in Anakin. Anakin being possibly the most powerful Jedi ever while Palpatine sees himself as the most powerful Sith ever. He wants to see Anakin become the most powerful Force user of all time and even boasts to Yoda like a proud papa that he will, "become more powerful than either of us!" But he also sees weakness in Anakin that keeps him from achieving his full potential and in a twisted way I think Palpatine feels he's helping Anakin by ridding him of those weaknesses. Of course I'm talking about his attachments to Obi-Wan and Padme (funny that the Jedi would also see those as his weaknesses.) So when Anakin "kills" his wife and destroys his relationship with Obi-Wan, Palpatine takes pleasure in his pain because he knows that Anakin has freed himself of his limitations (in Palpatine's mind that is.) He's happy for Anakin IMO. Unfortunately, Anakin is also badly wounded in his battle so he is unable to achieve that full potential and eventually Palpatine finds another who can possibly become what he hoped Darth Vader would become. So in ROTJ he spurns his "first love" for the "new love" and attempts to goad Luke into doing exactly what Anakin did. Destroy his own family. This is the way I see it and I'm not trying to convince you but I do see a lot of complexity to his character.
     
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  12. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Before the PT came out, I found the ROTJ Palpatine to be quite scary - mainly because of his mystery and also his face. By the time we really met him in ROTJ, the knowledge of everything the Empire had done, the struggles that all the characters had gone through, the fact that this monstrous villain Vader was able to be created from a great noble Jedi, the caution and concern Obi Wan and Yoda displayed when referring to him, all made this old man in a dark hood with all the Empire at his beck and call the scariest mofo in the galaxy. And his face in ROTJ was the personification of Death itself. He had a very Grim Reaper look to him. This was diminished somewhat in the PT when he behavior became a little latter day Freddy Krueger lounge act-y. (Latter day Englund version)
     
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  13. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    Horses for courses... I never particularly liked ROTJ - even as a Star Wars fan... Han was kind of sissy and weak, Vader went good and took off his mask to reveal Mr Potato head and the Emperor showed up hamming it up, usurping Vader and being all Rowan Atkinson pantomime like... I personally find that the PT redeems ROTJ just as much as Luke redeems his father. It gives that pantomime villain context and explains why he owns Vader. Now I can watch ROTJ and actually enjoy it much more. ;)
     
  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Palpatine in the in PT was brilliant ex, Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise, turning Anakin and pretty much anything he does before the end of the Mace Windu duel. Though loved his speech to the Senate.
    But Palpatine in ROTJ was perfect. His lines, he sold them easily.
     
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  15. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    The PT has Battle Droids and the OT has Stormtroopers. What will the ST have?
     
  16. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 4, 2012
    Battle planktons.
     
  17. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    As the ST progresses I'm hoping for undead Skelo-Troopers that mirror the PT battle droids.
     
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  18. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    I like the camp aspect of the villains in Star Wars, personally. I think it helps lighten the action a bit. And I think all Star Wars villains are campy in their own way. For example, some of you find Vader frightening, but I've always found there to be an enjoyable bobblehead quality about him. His suit is cool and scary in a way, but also kind of campy ridiculous.

    I actually enjoy PT Sidious quite a bit. I don't really find him scary, except for when I'm worried he'll destroy Yoda. I love the essence of evil he conveys; he gives us a texture of what evil feels like if you were to embody it in someone. I find that sort of enthralling, maybe more than scary. But it has scary moments too, when he takes the Jedi out so easily, you get this sense that real evil might have this surface campiness to it, but that's only to distract you from how deadly it is.

    I don't know, I'm beginning to believe more and more that people want Star Wars to become some different genre than its always been. To abandon its pulpy camp elements in favor of a dramatically straight and serious style like Dark Knight.

    Darth_Pevra: Maybe if you read the Baxter essay, you'd change your mind a bit? Who knows.
     
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  19. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I agree completely. When I first saw ROTJ I thought it was a bit too childish for me, but of course I'd grown up a bit since TESB and it was me who'd outgrown it rather than it was pitched younger (although admitedly it was more kid friendly than TESB). It wasn't until I was an adult that I learnt to appreciate Star Wars again. Of course as an adult I'm not going to find Sidious, Maul or Vader scary... but literally thousands of kids do.

    Sith Troopers...
     
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  20. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I find this kind of thinking a bit lazy, which is why I try to stay away from it.

    Why write a complex protagonist? The audience will like a one-dimensional too.
    Why write a complex villain? Model him as stock evil sorcerer and people will like him too.
    Why write good prose? The audience will enjoy puke prose too.
    Why write a good and meaningful plot? The audience will like a stock-plot too.
    Why invent new creatures? The audience will like the umpteenth iteration of Elves/Dwarves/Vampires too.
    Why research into a setting? Just follow the clichés people have of the place and you are set.

    The sad thing is. You can really earn a lot of money by only using well-known formulas, but I prefer to read/watch the more inventive ones.

    I like Pulp because it often involves a certain wackiness, a daring you sometimes don't find in other mainstream literature. But like in every genre you can find boring, unoriginal pulp as well as fun original pulp. Palpatine was fine in ROTJ, bearable in the PT, but if he is in the ST as well as his boring old self they might as well put neon letters on the movie posters that spell "Hey suckers, we sell you the same **** as before and put zero creative effort into this, buy our movie tickets!".

    Rant end/
     
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  21. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    So, I'm assuming some of you have seen the Jett Lucas interview in the Casting Rumors thread? In it he mentions that some of the theories he's read online have actually been close to what's being planned for the ST. And then he also essentially says, expect new heroes and villains.

    Can we extrapolate from this information, however tenuously, some bit of truth about the next villain in the ST? They will likely be new, at least technically so (Plagueis was mentioned, but never seen). And they might be part of what some fans have been guessing online (Plagueis has become a major meme here).

    What other newish villain gets more play in theories than our man Plagueis?
     
  22. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

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    Sep 14, 2013
    While the Hills were busy running the Intergalactic Banking Clan, Plagueis was running the Interuniversal Banking Clan!
     
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  23. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I don't think Palpatine has been confirmed as returning so no need to worry yet.
     
  24. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I think it's looking quite likely at this stage that it will be Plagueis...
     
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  25. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    You seem to be talking about two things here, Pevra, and then conflating them both into the Bad.

    1) One dimensional or flat characters are an essential part of good storytelling. The more round (complex) characters you have, the less time you can devote to the main protagonist. E.M. Forster, in Aspects of the Novel, talks about the need for flat characters and how they move the plot forward and enable the protagonist to be fully complex.

    One of the problems with an 800 page Dostoevsky novel is that every character is complex, or too round. That doesn't mean it's a bad novel, but that most people don't have time to read it -- well, others would call it bad because of the horrible pacing. So complexity has a lot to do with time. And in film, we have less time than a novel to develop characters.

    One of the reasons villains tend to be less complex is because writers want to make sure they develop the complexity of the protagonist, who is the main focus of the narrative (traditionally).

    2) One dimensionality is not necessarily the same thing as cliche. A cliche can be complex actually, and a flat character can be portrayed in an original way. For example, Palpatine may be based on the old sorcerer trope, but in Star Wars he's presented through the lens of a different kind of genre (space opera) than pure fantasy, so the context makes the trope fresh, but we also have this texture of evil I keep mentioning that shows that one dimension can be very interesting. Palpatine is the darkside embodied; his lust for power is so intense we get a powerful sense of what this kind of evil feels like. Poorly done flat characters don't function in this way; they simply function as plot or exposition devices. But with Sidious we see how evil moves, breathes, laughs, speaks, and fights. I think it's one of my favorite aspects of Star Wars. I actually consider Palpatine to be close to a kind of expressionism. He's not a person, but a feeling of anger.
     
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