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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Books The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Bullhead CIty

    Bullhead CIty Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2012
    The Apprentice is always weaker than the Master. The act of ascendancy, murder in this case, is what opens the door for the Apprentice to become a Master in his own rite.
     
  2. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    If the Master is silly enough to allow their pupil to take them out through subterfuge or guile -- as Plagueis was in this case -- then they don't deserve to be the Master.

    It's that simple. The idea that legitimacy requires a "direct contest" is nonsense.

    Maybe Plagueis was the better duellist. Maybe he did have the stronger "combat powers" (or whatever)... but he clearly didn't have the powers of perception necessary to handle an apprentice of Sidious' calibre, and he thus paid the price.
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    As Palpatine puts it in the Telos Holocron:

    Choose someone as a successor and you will inevitably be succeeded.

    Choose someone hungrier and you will be devoured.

    Choose someone quicker and you won't dodge the blade at your back.

    Choose someone with more patience and you won't block the blade at your throat.

    Choose someone more devious and you'll hold the blade that kills you.

    Choose someone more clever and you'll never know your end.

    Despite these cautions, an apprentice is essential. A Master without an apprentice is a Master of nothing.
     
  4. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    On another note:

    Please avoid these sort of condescending and provocative remarks -- at best they'll only be ignored, and at worst they'll get a person's back up unnecessarily.

    (The rest of your post was fine.)
     
  5. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2009
    [​IMG]

    The masses will sing the song of your wisdom for generations to come, my son.

    Really, the entire rant is a bit incoherent. Sidious actually tells Plagueis that, if he looks back, he'll see where Palpatine was stringing him along the whole time. If it never happened, how would Plagueis remember it? Unless Sidious is so narcissistic and megalomaniacal as to be outright deluded: his own ego has warped his memory as such that he genuinely believes he's played Plagueis the whole time? I'm really not sure. The book offers nothing that Dooku and Kamino originated with Sidious. Though Book of Sith does suggest Palpatine was dishonest with Plagueis from the start: he feigned ignorance of the Sith in Plagueis, but Book of Sith says he was collecting Sith paraphernalia before he'd ever met Plagueis.

    It's sort of a jumbled mess, IMHO, which is a stark contrast to Luceno's delicately and deliberately crafted Cloak of Deception.
     
    DarthJenari likes this.
  6. Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken

    Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Sidious' speech as he's killing his master is almost schizophrenic in nature. I find it funny. Sidious has no qualms about completely taking credit for Plagueis' work, yet in the same breath accuses Plagueis of "with meticulous skill, manipulated him into committing patricide, matricide, fratricide." He says Plagueis had him "under his thumb". "But Master- never!"
    Which is it?
    It's even funnier when it comes to the issue of power:
    - first he calls himself 'his equally powerful apprentice'
    - then he calls himself "the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known" (how would he know anyway?)
    - then he uses Plagueis' own words to justify his death:"How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever."

    Well which is it Sidious? Stronger, equal or weaker but more clever?[face_tee_hee]
    ***

    I think even as he killed him, Sidious was still somewhat in awe of the old Muun's power. He was never sure if he wasn't a level or two behind(as, I'm assuming, is the case for all Sith apprentices who are contemplating challenging their masters). That's why the rant. All the venom directed at Plagueis was Sidious overcompensating.

    I feel it makes sense: Sidious felt he couldn't match Plagueis in power, so he flaunted the thing he was better better at than Plagueis, which is cunning. Plagueis was the one who concerned himself with the higher mysteries of the Force, while he let Sidious handle matters of the "profane". So Sidious flipped it back on him. He killed him profane-style, not in an epic contest of Force mastery, but by getting him drunk and betraying him.
     
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  7. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    It confused me for a long time, but I finally concluded that he was talking about how Plagueis attempted to manipulate him and how Plagueis attempted to put him under his thumb.
    What Plagueis didn't realize is that the "profane" is what truly matters. In fact, GL has made comments suggesting (to me) that Palpatine becoming Senator is what initially unbalanced The Force.
     
  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Can you provide the quote?
     
  9. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2009
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Not formally, but one of my posts around the time of release was a quasi-review of sorts.

    Killed and attacked are different words having different meanings. In the book, he may have been attacked in his sleep, but he did not die in his sleep. He was awakened by the initial attack.
     
  11. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    I am displeased. You will kindly and, in vivid detail, give us your thoughts and a numerical score. I expect this by the end of business or there will be consequences.
     
  12. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    -"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."
    -"In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."
     
  13. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    This is far and away my preferred interpretation of the Force imbalance thingy.
     
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  14. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    As I see it, The Force is out of balance when the Sith are manipulating the Republic.
     
  15. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Balance is manifest in reality, and vice-versa -- greed and corruption is already endemic in the Republic when Episode I begins.
     
  16. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Greed is something you're going to have to live with under any circumstances. I don't tend to think that killing Palpatine removed greed from the universe.
     
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  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    While there may have always been greedy people, the Trade Federation didn't always have a Senator.
     
  18. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    In general I think people take the idea of the Chosen One too literally, as if all evil was supposed to be erased or something.
     
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  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    That doesn't sound very balanced, does it?
     
  20. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that "balance" is between good and evil.
     
  21. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    No, it just removed it from a position of domination -- a position it holds in Episode I in which the Trade Federation can invade a planet and block any action from being taken by the Republic through corruption in the senate.
     
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  22. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    Exactly. That's why i'm not bothered by the idea of the Dark Side still being used decades later by either Sith or Dark Jedi.
     
  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    If balance is between good and evil, balance is undesirable.
     
  24. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    It's not. It's not western dualism at all.
     
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    So, in Episode I the Trade Federation can invade a planet and the Republic doesn't do anything except for sending some Jedi. Now fast forward to the end of ROTJ: there is no Republic. When a real government is restored, what's to stop it from being just as susceptible to corruption as its predecessor? Wishful thinking?

    Not if balance between good and evil ( sometimes called "peace" ) is the best you can realistically expect.