PT Did Mace Windu effectively destroy the Jedi?

First, Lucas noticeably didn't comment on the situation during the commentary. It was John Knoll.

Second, what Knoll said is not necessarily inconsistent with Palpatine using something like "Mask" from the SWRPG. It can be parsed to mean that the exertions cause him to lose the mask.

 

Why is it necessary for Palpatine's ugliness to be a reflection of his evil? I never understood this concept that ugliness=evil and beauty=goodness.

I don't think he was wearing a mask. I believe that his physical appearances were simply how he looked - before and after his confrontation with Mace. The only "mask" that Palpatine wore were the genial or statesmanlike attitudes he assumed in most of the PT.

 

Palps got hit with the ugly stick.

 

Mace was not following the code .

 

He didn't have any decent cheat codes either.

 

This is Palps right after killing Plagueis. Definitely young.

 

An actual mask, no. But in terms of reflecting what his true nature is, well, that's just old fashioned theater and cinema. Palpatine is no longer pretending to be something he is not. The face change is just gravy, be it a Force illusion or physical damage.

 

I never liked that pic. Looks like he's about to make himself a strong drink.

 

I would say that mace was not the cause of the fall of the Jedi. I would have thought that Sidious would have meditated or produced a vision of the future to plan ahead and manipulate events to his advantage. I don't think there was any course of action by that point that the Jedi could have taken that would have saved them, the major turning point I think was earlier in the film. I think mace could have bought any Jedi with him including Anakin and the end point would have been the same. For those of you that are thinking well mace beat Sidious in combat, that is fundamentally wrong. The reason I think it is wrong is because it is well documented that Sidious was not only a master of lighsaber combat, he was also a master of manipulation. I have read many times that Sidious would often fight within himself to draw opponents in or mock them. This would also work well with him looking weak in Anakin's eye's luring him over to the dark side. If Anakin was present from the start Sidious would have tried to protect himself but allowing himself to fail. This would once again lure mace down the path of killing him to prevent him from getting away in the future which would then cause Anakin to sway to the dark side and fight with Sidious. Anakin and Sidious in full flow could surely cut down any Jedi from that era. That's the way I see it anyways.

 

Mace was not to blame Sidious and his master had this all planed before the battle of naboo mace just provided sidous with an injury that enable him to get the senate on his side, but considing how ,uch sidious plans he may have let mace reflect the force lighting back in to his face on porpoise

 

Who do I blame for the fall of the Jedi Order? Palpatine, Count Dooku, Anakin, Master Yoda, Master Mace Windu, Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, other members of the Jedi Council, and the Senate.

 

Mace always seemed to me to be jealous of the attention Anakin was getting and in some way felt it was unwarranted.

If Anakin didn't turn to the Sith I feel Mace would have been next in line.



This image of Mace always reminds of this....



....coincidence??

 

Were they really random jedi though? Those guys were supposed to be all sorts of badass with lightsabers but Sidious just ran through them. Not to mention Windu was the 2nd most powerful Jedi out there, 2nd only to Yoda and probably the best duelist at the time, if not all time. I guess he was confident and had every reason to be. At the end of the day, it was Palpatines masterful manipulation that did the trick.

 

The visual of Vader and Mace was obviously intentional. Though, in reality, you would hold a sword that way to an opponent on the ground. The camera angles here, though, give you just enough clue that it was a strong cue on Lucas's part in 03 and 04.

 

Even the cylindrical, wrap-round background provides another arresting link between the two.

 

Is there a visual of Yoda in the same pose . . . or are we supposed to believe that Yoda's attempt to kill Palpatine was right?

If we're supposed to believe that Mace was wrong in his attempt to kill Palpatine, yet Yoda was right to make the same choice . . . I REFUSE TO ACCEPT this. I really do. Either both Yoda and Mace were wrong or right.

 

While I believe they where both wrong, I think Mace was more wrong. When Mace went, the Jedi at that point had more options at hand, he just acted on impulse. Also more people were affected because of his actions, he effectively gave Palps a reason to start order66. Whereas with Yoda it was more a case of "The Jedi are the enemy, we've pretty much all been wiped out. I'll have to go into hiding regardless of what happens. So what the hell!". At Yoda's point he really didn't have much to lose, whereas with Mace there was a lot more riding on it, which is why I think his was the more worse decision, so to speak.

But technically speaking the reason I think there were both wrong is because they had no authority to arrest him, he hadn't actually done anything wrong. Given his respect and position in the Senate he always knew that if the Jedi did move against him that he would have the support of the senate. He just needed a reason to wipe out the Jedi, hence telling Anakin he was a Sith. He knew the Jedi would move against him and the likely hood that it would end in a fight, after which he could make it look like the Jedi where trying to take over.

 

There's plenty of wrong things the Jedi knew the Sith in general had been responsible for over the last 13 years or so- and they already knew Dooku was The Apprentice, not The Master.

Thus, if they had taken him alive, and brought him before the courts, they could have charged him with the Naboo invasion in TPM- and with everything bad Dooku did- since Dooku was his apprentice.

Add in his ordering Order 66 (a massively disproportionate response, against many Jedi that hadn't done anything wrong either) and Yoda at that point had huge reasons to feel that Palpatine needed "bringing to justice" and since he believed the courts were corrupt, Yoda was going to make his own justice.

 

Mace was wrong only in that he was goaded by Palpatine into changing his mind about arresting him, to murdering him in front of Anakin. Remember, just a few days ago, Anakin said to Palpatine that when he killed Dooku, it was not the Jedi way. He had been trained for thirteen years to not kill a helpless person. So for Mace to turn around and try to do that, was a great big contradiction and made Mace hypocritical. It also fed into what Palpatine said about the Jedi and the Sith being similar in nearly every way. But beneath it all was the real issue and that was Anakin didn't want Palpatine to die, since it would mean that Padme would die. Palpatine was his last hope for saving her and he couldn't let that go. When Yoda goes after Palpatine, he's not going in for the arrest. He's going in for the kill and he is not fighting someone who is playing to another. Palpatine fights him without holding back and gives Yoda everything he's got and vice versa.

Uh, he's a Sith Lord. Two thousand years ago, the Sith almost completely took over the entire galaxy and ruled tyrannically for nearly a thousand years, before the Jedi and what was left of the Republic came back and took them out. Now, a thousand years later, a Sith Lord was the leader of the opposition and there are always two Sith Lords working together. Palpatine was the other Sith Lord and having just confessed to Anakin, was enough for an arrest with a subsequent investigation to prove it.

 

This is a cool image - never seen it before.

 

You could say the same thing about Palpatine at the beginning of ROTS, but that doesn't conflict with the true form theory.

 

Also, apparently Plagueis was killed by Palpatine when he got the title of Supreme Chancellor.

 

This makes no sense to me whatsover. Especially when I recall that Mace was one of those who thought that Anakin as "the Chosen One" was a possibility in AOTC. Why is it so important to some fans that Mace be the sole Jedi responsible for the Order's downfall? Why? I've been asking this question for years. And instead of answering it, many keep dumping ludicrous theories of why he was the only "bad Jedi", aside from Anakin.

Palpatine was also the official leader of the Republic/Empire, which meant that both Yoda and Mace went after him without any real authority from the Senate. And if the latter had refused to give them authority . . . too damn bad. They had lost. The problem with Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and other Jedi is that they had lost the struggle against the Sith even before they realized it. They were not following their instincts. And if the Republic had to suffer under Palpatine's rule . . . too bad. They were the ones whose votes put the man in power and kept him in power for over a decade. Sometimes, we have to pay the price for our actions and inactions.

 

^this

 

That doesn't make any difference. What happened in the past is history and has no bearing on the present. To many the force is just a believe, like religion. Look at Britain we've had some great leaders in the past, does that mean that every leader we have now is going to be great, no of course not. Look at the guy we've got now, he's a greedy, power hungry control freak who only cares about how much money he makes.

Many of the senate don't know the difference between the Sith and the Jedi, some may not even believe in the force. Look at that guy that Vader chokes in a new hope, clearly he thinks the force is just some made up load of crap.

Like I said Palpatine had legally done nothing wrong, he was a respected and trusted Chancellor. The Jedi couldn't even prove he was a Sith, they couldn't prove he was responsible for the war, they pretty much couldn't prove anything. The truth is Palpatine set up a trap and the Jedi took the bait.