Discussions Is Darth Plagueis the strongest Sith in Bane's Order?

purplerain I suppose, but given the fact he never displayed it when there were instances it would've benefited him, and his use of Essence Transfer i'm inclined to believe he was lying when he said he'd learned it. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that's how I see it.

And i'm saying that because Palpatine can't overcome it he couldn't.

I didn't say the abilities themselves were similar, but the people and situations one would face battling them. In short, godlikeabilities that can't be overcome in a conventional way. The abilities are similar in that all three are kept from death in various ways. Plagueis heals himself. Nihilus has bound his essence to his armor. And Sion's body and soul are bound together by the Force. And Nihilus was killed by the Exile after being weakened by both her and Visas link to him, this dampened his connection to the Force. Since the ability is completely dependent on the Force, of course weakening the connection would weaken the ability. At its max however, the ability can't be overcome. Considering that Venamis was dead, and Plageuis brought him back to life, I doubt just stabbing him in the heart would work as long as he was aware when it was happening. And i'm not saying any of them are invincible. I'm saying they can't be killed through normal means.

Cade's ability isn't the same as Plagueis. There's an actual limit to it. However, it is still a godlike healing skill that can be used on the fly.

I'm not saying he's not the most powerful sith lord. I'm not saying he'd lose. At no point have I stated either of those things. I'm saying that he quite simply wouldn't be able to kill Plagueis. The same way that no person could possibly kill Sion unless they severed his connection to the Force, or talked him into dying. No matter how powerful they were, it could be Vader, it could be Jacen Solo, it could be freaking Yoda, if they don't have a particular ability, Sion's not dying. And I see Plagueis and Nihilus in the same light.

 

DarthJenari

It doesn't matter if Cade's ability is more limited than Plagueis', it's still the same: healing themselves. Plagueis isn't all-powerful; it's not like he's gonna heal himself with a lightsaber stabbed to his heart. He can be killed with a lightsaber until proven otherwise, just as anybody else but Sion.

 

No it's not the same. Similar, but not the same. It's a healing ability that can be used in the midst of battle. It hasn't ever revived a dead person. Sidious going to leave a lightsaber in Plagueis corpse forever? I didn't think so. He'll die, the lightsaber will be removed, and he'll come back, starting the chain all over. And this is of course assuming that the duel plays out in such a way.

 

In any case, the purpose of the ability is the same and it goes no further than healing. It's just that.

So, why didn't he do this after Palpatine killed him in his sleep, then? He never came back...

 

Plagueis goes a lot further though. Not only healing, but being able to heal wounds that were gained years earlier, and even revive the dead. Whereas Cade had limits, such as not being able to completely heal Azlyn.

Because when he died he was drunk and disoriented, instead of at his peak and focused.

 

DarthJenari

lol, drunk and disoriented. Well, that's true, I give you that.

And yes, Plagueis was indeed able to revive the dead but he, even though drunk an disoriented, was never able to come back from death. Being drunk and disoriented doesn't have anything to do with him not coming back to life. Unless you think he was still drunk and disoriented after he was died and was never able to make it back due to these factors...

 

I'd say it does as it would effect his Force Abilities. After death i'm not sure, as we never saw anything from his point of view. I'd think it'd be similar to his Master's experience in death. He'd come back to his body, but it'd be in the same condition from the alcohol and oxygen deprivation, until eventually even if he came back to it the body'd be gone/unusable in his master's case. I note this because for all thoughts that a Sith Lord dies and is then instantly aware of their spirit, Plagueis master was gone from his body for what seemed a few seconds, and then returned to it to find it mummified, as he'd been unaware of how much time had passed.

 

...So he dies! As he actually did.

 

"Strongest" is a ver loose term. Is he the "strongest" in combat? Certaintly not, Sidious and possibly other Siths are above him. Is he the strongest regarding esoteric aspects of the Dark Side? Most likely yes.

As to why Sidious killed him, it was not so much necessarily that Sidious could not best him in combat, albeit it is possible he may have not felt himself 100% certain of defeating him. Is exactly because said esoteric aspects most likely. Plagueis had specifically a VERY BROKEN ability which allowed him to will the midichlorians back into The Force, this means that he could essentially will someone to die provided he could get enough time and concentration, the guy was basically a walkind Death Note if left unchecked.

Here is a writing of what Plagueis wanted to achieve and possibly could had if he had survived enough:

"The greater goal
of the Sith involved toppling the Force itself, and becoming
the embodiment of the galaxy’s animating principle.
It had been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance
between the light and dark sides was actually under the
guidance of a group of discorporate entities—the ones
called the Celestials, perhaps—who had merged
themselves with the Force thousands of generations
earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy
ever since. In effect, a higher order of intermediaries,
whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal
beings. But many Sith viewed the notion with disdain, for
the theoretical existence of such a group had little bearing
on the goal of making the Force subservient to the will of an
enlightened elite. Only the Sith understood that sentient life
was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the
manipulation of midi-chlorians—or the overthrow of the
Forceful group that supervised them—the divide between
organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death
could be erased from the continuum.
As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to
perpetuate their spirits after physical death—foremost
among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a
thousand years—the ancient Sith had come halfway across
that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly
power that they had ended up trapping themselves
between realms. That they had never provided the Order
with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their
influence had been negligible, and had long since faded
from the world.
In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been
responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side
Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether
realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding
off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the
deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the
language of the midi-chlorians. Plagueis was finally
learning to do that, and was just beginning to learn how to
persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax them into action.
Already he could command them to promote healing, and
now he had been successful in enticing them to lower their
defenses. If he could compel a murderous Yinchorri to
become peaceful, could he—with a mere suggestion—
accomplish the opposite by turning a peaceful being into a
murderer? Would he one day be able to influence the
leaders of worlds and systems to act according to his
designs, however iniquitous? Would he one day conquer
not only death but life, as well, by manipulating midichlorians
to produce Forceful beings, even in the absence
of fertilization, as Darth Tenebrous might have attempted to
do with gene-splicing techniques and computers?
Perhaps.
But not until the singular flame of the light side was
extinguished from the galaxy. Not until the Jedi Order was
stamped out."

So after re-reading this chapter I have to admit Sidious actions most likely were not much out of weakness (fear of the possiblity he might be unable to defeat Plagueis) and more with the fact that Sidious had to execute the assasination FLAWLESSLY, he could not even risk Plagueis fleeing, he had make 100% sure Plagueis died and could commit no mistakes because otherwise Sidious could be done for.

So I think it depends on what you believe to be the strongest.

Was Plagueis the strongest in combat ability and Force powers? No, Sidious definitively was.
Was Plagueis the strongest in Sith Sorcery? Yes, I think he was.
Was Plagueis the POTENTIALLY strongest Sity? Possibly, look at what I quoted, he was following the Celestials or whatever that mysterious race that supposedly guided the entirety of the force was footsteps.

 

This is basically my position on the argument.

 

There just happens to be another Force User that can die and bring himself back to life: Darth Krayt and that isn't even counting his knowledge of Essence Transfer.

 

Yeah, except as I quoted Transfer Essence and all that was considered futile in comparison to what Plagueis was trying to accomplish.

 

Sorry, but I'm confused by point 2. The Windu duel was mentioned in the Plagueis novel?

 

It suggested that force lightning can transform the victim- and for Sith, this may be a Good Thing.

Thus, getting hit by his own lightning might have boosted Palpatine some. At least, I think that's the implication being made.

 

Whoa! It did? I have read it twice but don't recall that. Guess i missed it.

 

pages 159-160:

"A Jedi sufficently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a fascimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires a strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer to one's will."
"But the Force cannot be treated deferentially," he added as a few final tendrils sparked from his fingertips. "In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."
Sidious watched the last of the brush fires burn out, then asked, "Will I eventually be physically transformed?"
"Into some aged, pale-skinned, raspy-voiced, yellow-eyed monster, you mean. Such as the one you see before you." Plagueis gestured to himself, then lowered himself to the ground. "Surely you are acquainted with the lore: King Ommin of Onderon, Darths Sion and Nihilus. Whether it will happen to you, I can't say. Know this, though, Sidious, that the power of the dark side does not debilitate the practitioner as much as it debiliates those who lack it." He grinned with evil purpose. "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of."

 

Ah ok, I remember now. Thanks!

 

In Darth Vader & The Ghost Prison, we see that once Palpatine's inhaled a deadly virus- even he can't hold it at bay indefinitely- so Vader puts him in stasis until they can cure it.

So Palpatine does have some limitations.

 

Yep I remember that. Kinda funny, Vader could have ended him then and there....

 

Vader wants to learn all of Palpatine's secrets first.

"One day I will surpass you," Zannah warned him. "And on that day I will kill you, Lord Bane. But that day is not today."

Replace "Zannah" and "Lord Bane" with "Vader" and "Lord Sidious" and you've got Vader's views, I'm guessing.

 

Erm no, he could use Dark Transfer to bring himself back from the brink of death over and over, he gained immense physical health after he 'died' and was reborn, and essentially became immortal.

 

What about Darth Tenebrous? What was he trying to do? I forget...

 

Yeah, from what we've seen Krayt took Dark Transfer to a level even further than Cade (Though there's no reason to believe Cade couldn't do the same if he actually died. He's just, you know, never actually died.) Both abilities accomplish the same, but Midichlorian Manipulation accessed more skills.

 

He wanted to possess the Chosen One, through some kind of uber haxx Transfer Essence that was essentialy unblockable since it worked through the midichlorians like a virus or some ****. He may had actually succeeded, his maxi-chlorians possession was one of the most broken techniques, too bad he panicked and shot himself out of Plagueis prematurely.

I don't remember if he had any plans of what to do after seizing the Chosen One though.

In fact just for that technique, I consider Tenerous to be the only Sith that is truly undefeatable in a 1 - 1 fight agaisnt anyone with a body, merely because he had basically a powergamed version of TE that was supposed to be an "I win button. You can't reject me no matter what."

No, read what I posted, becoming imprevious to age was just a step, his goal was basically follow the Celestial footsteps or whatever that trascendant race that supposedly controls the entirety of The Force is. He wanted to erase whatever separated an organic body and pure Force and become like The Ones if not higher.

"the divide between
organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death
could be erased from the continuum."

And it is believed had Sidious not killed him, he would eventually had. But unfortunately for Plagueis, just like the guy in EU who got killed before he became Abeloth-like, just like Vitiate who got killed before he could enact his plan to suck every being in the galaxy and just like Jerec who got killed before he could complete his apotheosis, Plagueis got killed before he could become a Force god.

Midichlorian Manipulation has a potential way and beyond Transfer Essence, Plagueis believed he could make himself unkillable with that. Not as in not dying from age immortal but as in "Oh, what is a lightsaber though my chest going to do?" immortal.

 

That is what Krayt could do, he could bring everyone including himself back from the dead, whilst it may not be exactly the same thing, don't underestimate how far superior his technique was to Essence Transfer.