Lit The post-TUF Jedi and their biggest problems

Okay, so here we go. I've done some thinking and I may have a viable reason why Denning has driven the Jedi into the depths of corrupt despots all over again. This is, of course, a post full of personal opinions and nothing more, but I think I've figured it out. Also, note this is only from reading the novels and not the Leviathan comic, etc. Let's take a look at the pre-NJO vs. post-NJO main Jedi...

Surviving Inaugural Class of the New Jedi Order

Streen: Streen, pre-NJO, seemed to be the go-to Jedi when there was something not action-oriented to do. For example, when Luke left in the BFT, he put Streen in charge of the Jedi Praxeum. This hints that Streen had incredible leadership potential. Post-NJO, he has been regulated to Dathomir and then vanished.

Kirana Ti: In KJA's books, Kirana Ti seemed to be the combat-oriented character of the class. She was the one who took Gantoris' lightsaber when he died, and used it to great effect in Darksaber. Again, having not read the comic I do not know how she fared there, but she seemed well enough able to fight on the level of, say, Kit Fisto. As with Streen, she was regulated post-NJO to Dathomir and then obscurity; her niece had a brief appearance in LOTF.

Tionne: Here's the big one. In I, Jedi it was noted that Tionne was the "heart of the class" and this is probably the biggest thing missing in post-NJO stories; a heart. I think Denning tries to push this upon Luke, but he does not seem to be able to write him as the heart and the leader simultaneously. Tionne, as she appears in post-NJO, is either a practice dummy for insane GAG majors, or a Jocasta Nu rip-off. It really annoys me as, despite not being able to get a good mental picture of her when reading, she always stood out to me, especially since she continued trying to be a Jedi despite her lack of skill, and even becoming a Council member. Since the end of the Bantam era, I believe Greg Keyes wrote her better than anyone has since.

Kam Solusar: Solusar was initially a filler character in Dark Apprentice, but after being expounded upon in Dark Empire II and I, Jedi, he definitely seemed to be at least Luke's right-hand teacher; even as a student he taught combat in I, Jedi; this is probably due to his training even from a child. Besides Luke, he was definitely the most experienced Jedi in the inaugural class. Even in NJO, he was regulated to being the Praxeum watcher with Tionne, but Keyes did him very well in his duology, I feel. Post-NJO, he's just a Council filler, and even then he's usually not even there! Again, he's shoved off to the Academy no one ever visits; in this case Ossus and Shedu Maad.

Kyle Katarn: Beside Solusar and Luke, Kyle has been using his lightsaber longest of anyone and I daresay, besides Luke and Corran (and technically Mara) he is the most well-known of the inaugural class. He has had three video games dedicated to him. Having killed six Dark Jedi (Yun was not his kill), he has the most combat experience in lightsaber skill of any of them; even Luke only fought Vader, Palpatine, Luuke Skywalker, and a few of Palpatine's dark side Elite in lightsaber combat! Post-NJO, Kyle has become yet another Council filler; he has done slightly more than Kam, but...he has at least done a little. What? Been stabbed by Caedus and survived. Whoopee.

Corran Horn: Corran is arguably the most well-known of the inaugural class behind Luke. Having been the focus of I, Jedi, we probably know the most about his mentality out of any of them. He is the pilot and investigator of the group, and he was marvelously written all throughout NJO by Keyes and Stackpole. Post-NJO...you guessed it; yet another Council filler. He's hardly done anything, period, and that is a kriffing waste of a character.

Madurrin: Who the kriff is she, again? Oh, that's right, she was created in Destiny's Way and someone decided she should be used in the inaugural class. Whoopee; she is literally a nobody who's important due to the Power of the Retcon.

The Jedi, post-NJO

Ben Skywalker: We have a whole thread dedicated to him somewhere; save this discussion for elsewhere.

Jaina Solo: Despite being one of the alleged main characters of the era, Jaina felt very much like a stranger through DNT and most of LOTF. Only in FOTJ did she finally become a true character, and even then she fell behind Luke and Leia in importance. SOTJ would've been very important to her development; if it is cancelled then Jaina may be in limbo for now. I'd argue that in NJO she was quite well-written, but many authors seem to have dropped the ball now.

Saba Sebatyne: Denning's very own Saba Sue herself; Miss Do-No-Wrong and Notices-Bad-Things-Before-Even-Luke. Yeah...I don't really have much nice to say about Saba besides, if she'd been written well, then she might've been a good character, but Denning so over-Sue'd her that she's not too tolerable anymore.

Kyp Durron: Kyp was set up to be the Luke of the Bantam era, and in early NJO was a renegade character who snubbed his nose at the rules and followed his own lead. Kyp could've been a great character; and several times was in post-SBS books in NJO. But unfortunately he seems to have become yet another filler on the Council.

Jaden Korr: Jaden is arguably the best character that has been written as a non-Skywalker Jedi in post-NJO stories. Because he actually does things. Even in Abyss he had a role; taking on Mandalorians beside Han, Leia, and some other guy named Avinoam. His true time to shine is in Kemp's duology though, and he is very well-done there. Jaden has the benefit of being a character created in a video game before the books, so he had a pre-created backstory. I, personally, would be glad to see Jaden as the focus of more post-FOTJ novels.

Zekk: The big, shaven Wookiee. He's disappeared since the end of LOTF and is now engaged to Taryn Zel. Since being separated from Jaina, Denning seems to see no worth in him at all. I did like Zekk but he hardly does anything anymore.

Overall suggestions: Bring back Kam, Tionne, Kyp, and Kyle in main roles. Streen and Kirana Ti need side roles sometimes. Bring in a new-to-Star-Wars author (like Martha Wells did with Leia) who can write good sword-fighting scenes but also good story and good Jedi, and have them do a story focused on Kam and Tionne. Have Kemp write a Kyle/Jaden duology. Develop Ben and don't cancel SOTJ. Whatever they do, something has to change here. Oh, and one more thing?

Un-retire Luke!

 

General incompetence has gotta be pretty high up there.

 

So the thesis of this is the condensing of the cast of the Jedi from Bantam to Del Rey as the key changing point, correct? Let us remove the outside stimuli, the changing of the Jedi in the Prequels and the cancelation of the Zekk spin-off, since those are business transaction bearing no intended relevance on the narrative thrust.

How would the inclusion of the secondary protagonists validate one of your main contentions, the power mad despot characterization? I must inquire why the New Jedi Order must automatically reach exalted status stainless? If we are to see the rebuilding of a religious order by a neophyte trained ad hoc then we, the reader, are to assume Luke is riding down newly minted autobahn instead pot holed filled gravel road? Should the reader desire the apotheosis of the Jedi then we need to move the story farther down the timeline. Therefore, do you concur that a minor timeline jump, say halfway through Crucible and the events of Legacy?

Given the near endless howling of the handling of Jaina Solo by critics of the status quo I ask what is your suitable alternative? Jaina has a narrative thread moving her aimless wandering of what to do next after the War, for her the Vong invasion, into an adult Jedi master. Fighting the good fight is the easy part. Moving on is the real challenge. Why must her characterization be blatantly manifest? This is good way to show the dichotomy between Jaina and Jacen. Remember Invincible when Luke drops the illusion over Jaina. "ZOMG, Jaina, I thought you making bug icky threesomes with Colonel Cardboard and Zekky?!?!?!?!?!?!"

You have placed Jaina into a stranger category for her trajectory. How is another "strong, take action" woman a positive addition in lieu of what happened? If everyone woman is inherently a go get them type as some of the allegedly denoted feminists activists only want then are you not creating a litany of caricatures as unbelievable as the negative stereotypes?

 

Sad to say but Denning has turned SW into a crapfest. I can't believe he used to be my favorite author. He fell, to the covoluted contrived plot device side. Just lousy weak atory telling. Sad.

 

I don't think bringing in Kyle, Kam, et al. is really a solution at all. Kyle and Kam are both older than Luke. And they're all past the point of character development. The reason why Luke is retired now, and should have fallen back into being a Yoda type figure a decade ago, is because the hero of a story is supposed to develop through the course of it, or at least have facets of the character previously unknown revealed through the plot. Del Rey has opted to release voluminous stories with a lot of gravity to them in lieu of a lot of shorter one offs and trilogies as Bantam did. Those types of stories function better when they're like the NJO and there's a focal character like Jacen that goes through substantial change through the course of the series. Luke isn't going to repeat the hero's journey or change substantially as a character in those types of stories. Jaina could, but her importance to the stories is compromised by Luke. That said, I'm not even sold on Sword of the Jedi considering that in it she is minimally in her mid-thirties. Consider that Anakin, Luke, and Jacen are all in their late teens to early twenties for their hero's journeys. Ben is the optimal focus character now, but that's a whole different discussion.

The Jedi as a whole both prior to and after the NJO aren't depicted all that differently in terms of development, e.g. Kam and Tionne weren't better developed than Saba and Zekk are now. The distinction is that the Bantam novels use the OT paradigm and the post-NJO novels use the PT paradigm, so the Jedi dominate the plot. You can't conceive of the Hand of Thrawn being written now, in which Luke and Corran are the only Jedi, and even back then Corran was in Rogue Nine mode rather than Jedi mode. And Leia is treated as a Jedi as well, but she is in diplomat mode. We've come a long way from Luke's Jedi being given this amount of attention in a major galactic story:

"We've already emptied the New Republic diplomatic corps and Jedi academy trying to find enough mediators to go around, and we still don't have enough."

I'd argue that the problem is that Dark Nest repudiated Luke's speech at the Conclave on Zonama Sekot, specifically this part:

"I don't propose that we place ourselves in seclusion and pass our days meditating on the Force -- though that might be the path for some of us. But I do advocate attuning ourselves to the longer view, and reaching out to others who seek to serve the Force. The genetic makeup of each and every one of us augments our ability to tap the Force, but everyone, regardless of his or her genetics, has the potential to use the Force to one degree or another. Perhaps not to move rocks and take giant strides; but in some sense those physical powers are little more than surface effects. The real powers are more subtle, for they involve adhering to the true path, avoiding the temptation to dominate, sacrificing oneself for those who have less, and living impeccably, by recognizing that the Force doesn't flow from us but through us, ever on the move."

This was always represented in the Expanded Universe, such as in Vision of the Future in which Corran and Leia are both treated as Jedi, but neither are wearing Jedi robes or wielding lightsabers. In Dark Nest, Luke declared that Jedi must be a Jedi first, and that means being a prototypical Jedi that wears the robes and wields a lightsaber. Prior to that, this was Luke's identity as a Jedi, but not everyone's. It was Anakin's as well. But Jaina was a fighter pilot. Corran was a fighter pilot. Leia was a diplomat. Katarn was a spec ops guy. Tionne was a minstrel. Kirana Ti was a Dathomiran witch. Now, you're a Jedi in the same vein as Luke, or you're not a Jedi at all.

Edit: I suppose I'll voice the opinion that viewing the Jedi through the lens of the prequel trilogy might give a... biased or incomplete view of what they were. It does seem that we're seeing the Jedi at their most interesting. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are sent as ambassadors to resolve a trade dispute. Presumably such missions typically don't devolve into violence pretty much... ever. There's an insinuation that the Jedi of the Old Republic at the time of the prequels aren't fighting much at all because there's simply no need. There's been a thousand years of peace. Sure, the EU has introduced some minor regional conflicts, but there's even an implication that as "keepers of the peace, not soldiers" the involvement by the Jedi in those was either so overwhelming for a side, even just from a morale standpoint, that it quickly ended it, or more diplomatic than martial.

But this premise is supported through the fact that many of the Jedi, despite their superior abilities, are still over-matched by the Clone Wars. Not every Jedi is Anakin Skywalker or Mace Windu; there were Jedi that were like Leia as a diplomat. Those Jedi were pushed into serving that prototypical Jedi warrior role due to the Clone Wars, but were overwhelmed by it.

 

Oh, I'm not suggesting that bringing in the Bantam Jedi would solve the problem all by itself; no, the problem itself will take far more to cure, and a better writer than Denning to do it. But my point is, if these characters had, in their original roles, been kept at the forefront beside Luke all throughout NJO and beyond, then maybe Denning would've picked up on what they were supposed to be and not tragically miswrote the entire Jedi Order. And I agree that Luke's conclave in Dark Nest was an enormous part of the problem–just the fact of "a Jedi must be a Jedi first" when before we had Hamner as a military liaison, Leia doing her government thing, Corran in Rogue Squadron, etc. is a problem by utterly ridiculous and it goes back to Denning's "can't write outside the Jedi Temple" problem.

Jacen and Jaina should've been thrust to the forefront, made the main characters, after TUF, with the older Bantam Jedi still being Council members, but not being filler. For example, everyone other than Luke on the Council is basically a do-nothing nobody, whereas with the PT Jedi, Mace Windu and Yoda both had large roles, and in TCW and the comics and novels, others like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Kit Fisto, and the rest were given important roles as well. This cannot be said for post-ROTJ; when was the last time Corran or Kyp actually did something that was really important? Or think about KOTOR 2's Jedi Council; Vrook, Zez-Kai-Ell, Kavar, Atris, Lonna Vash. Vash was dead, so she's out. But Vrook and Kavar especially had very large roles in their respective planets; Zez-Kai-Ell more or less but he was still pretty important. They were given roles that would've made things much harder without them. But without Kyp, or Kyle, or Tionne, would anything really be harder in the Denningverse? Apparently not...

 

Might a lot of the problem deal with the characters abilities?

 

How so, Chess?

 

They are trying too hard.

They try to condense the books so much now and stick with the raw details (and all the action bits) that they leave characters by the wayside. Where did the 400-500 page books that really delved into the characters go? Where are more books like the Thrawn Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn? I hated those books when I was younger because of the Tolkien like detail - but now I miss them more and more.
I am a little more than half way through the NJO so I won't comment on that era. But I have read all the books after TUF and most of the ones before NJO. There is a significant difference between the development of the characters and I agree that there is something lacking in the latter books. I love the big three and primarily read the books after Ep. 6 because of them. But they are wasting great characters (Zekk and Kyp being 2 of my favorites).

Then they went and killed Mara - Which is a whole other rant by itself that I won't get into. Needless to say I have come to grips with it (kind of) and realized that it has opened the door for Ben to have a larger part in the stories. But I am still waiting for him to be more than just a sidekick.

I think they need to get the old Timothy Zahn in there with handful of new authors and have them fix the place. By old I mean that Zahn is starting to lean the way of the other authors as well and we need to go back to the roots of Star Wars.

 

Characters are interesting to me because of their behaviors and abilities.

As Jedi tend to be limited in behavior (at the current time) it comes down to unique abilities to make Jedi interesting. The problem is that a few Jedi are far too good at most things and lacking in flaws and as a result make the rest look bad.

 

True, basically ever Jedi except the Sky/Solo clan is a redshirt Jedi at this point.

 

I assume with Luke stepping down that Saba has taken his place as leader. She is maybe the only Jedi beyond the Skysolos of any importance in the era. Tahiri also briefly took on some importance in her role as Fel's Hand, but they hit the reset button really quick on that one.

 

This. This this this.

 

Trust your feelings

Tell me which other non Skysolo Jedi had important roles in FOTJ?

 

Part of the problem here is that, post-NJO, the amount of material is really very, very small, and there are essentially no side stories at all. Poor Jaden 'I think I'm a Clone Now' Korr is the only person with any material not directly related to the main plotline.

There are no comics in this period. There are no video games. The SAGA RPG touched very briefly on the period, preferring the true Legacy comics era instead. Even the Atlas and Warfare kind of glossed over this period. It's 26 novels and that's all. Oh, and 23 of those novels (DNT, LotF, FotJ, and Crucible) have been effectively directed by one creative vision: Troy Denning.

The period of 30 ABY to 45 ABY has, by the standards of other EU eras, no depth or breadth. It really needs to add some. Unfortunately, at the moment the 25-45 ABY period is the most vulnerable timeframe in the EU, it is many times more likely for it to get the axe than anything else (except Legacy, but that was a lost cause the moment the ST was announced) so there's no impetus to put in any material that would fill in the gaps. There's also no major visual anchor material. The reason the PT period is so broad and interesting is due to the appearance of all those characters on film: pretty much anyone who appeared in a Jedi council group shot, even if they had no lines, was slotted for 'write me a story about that guy!' potential, and the public would understand a story about, say Ki-Adi-Mundi as 'oh, it's that conehead dude from the Council.' Casual fans don't know who the post-NJO big names are (except Kyle Katarn) and therefore the publishers have clung stubbornly to the SkySolos, because they have name recognition.

 

Allston and Golden don't have Jedi pet characters.

 

Why do you think they know who Kyle Katarn is?

Oh, yeah. I remember. He is the guy Jacen Solo stabbed through the chest.

 

The Star Wars PC and console games have a much larger market than Star Wars novels. The Force Unleashed sold 1.738 million copies (in the third quarter of 2008) compared to the novel selling 103,232 copies for the year. And The Force Unleashed novel was the bestselling Star Wars novel of that year, and of the prior two years.

TFU has sold over 6 million copies as of 2009. TFU 2 sold over 500,000 copies in the first two weeks of its release, and that's considered a bad game.

 

Unfortunately all the new books being released now are staying in business regardless of quality because of people like me who buy the books because its Star Wars and we still have a soft spot for Luke and the gang.

 

This.

In fact, NJO itself also has almost no side stories (not like we weren't asking though). However, NJO still had twice the amount of character development than everything that followed it: novels focused on Corran (yes, even though it's Corran), Anakin, Jacen, Jaina - that can be qualified as side stories. Heck, even the boring Force Heretic trilogy had enough worldbuilding to make it memorable. And that's not even mentioning how developed were the villains of NJO.

 

If we want to look at the Post-TUF New Jedi Order, honestly critique them, and sum up their problems in a nice and concise summary, then I believe Anakin Solo's already done it for us:

"The Order can't wait for a great Jedi Knight to lead it. That's what everyone thought I was, and when I died, too much died with me. Don't make the same mistake I did, don't let anyone push you into that. Every Jedi has to be his own light, because the light shouldn't go out when one Jedi dies."

Whether it be people looking towards Jacen after his moment of Oneness with the Force and overall heroism during the Vong War, or the Council not being able to function as a unit (or adults) without Luke being present, the Jedi have time and again been presented as sheep requiring a shepherd. The problem cropped up multiple times in DNT, and again in FOTJ leading to a Master outright dueling and accidentally killing another Master. Since Luke founded his Order, the entire point was to fill the galaxy with fully trained Jedi who could all work together to be a greater force for good than one Jedi could ever be on his own. Currently, they're hardly that. This lead to Luke taking the role of Grand Master, and making himself the one calling the shots. Note, Luke was always basically the head of the Order, the big dog, as he had the most training and such. Yet before, there were Jedi who were able to think, make rational decisions, and work together on their own. This made it so Luke could be more similar to Yoda, and basically watch over everyone, and keep track of missions and other galactic events, but he didn't have to be the master holding the dogs leash at all times. With the way the Jedi have been written over the past few years, he's had no choice but to be that.

This basically feeds another problem, which is the ridiculous amount of focus that the Skywalker/Solo clan receive. Luke and Leia are movie characters, and played key roles in the OT, so its somewhat inevitable, yet to make it so that we barely see or know other Jedi? This is an Order bordering 1,000 if I remember correctly, so there should be no shortage of characters to be used for different novels, different events, etc. And it doesn't require Luke, Leia, or there children to not be present, it simply requires other Jedi to be included, and then to have a writer take the time to give the character some actual development, and not just an appearance. I think that the Jedi left over from Luke's original class are older examples of this, with all of them having appeared decades ago and then being reused many times since (Though never in their own novels save for Corran) And at one point, they were all fairly interesting characters with potential. Since NJO however their roles have been reduced, they've been focused upon less and less, and the stories have all basically been about the Skywalkers/Solos, and then a random Jedi will appear once or twice and then never appear again.

If they want to fix things, they need to actually write the Order as being competent minus Luke, as well as really take the time to focus on its members. I've been saying for a while, and others have agreed, that large scale galaxy changing wars aren't necessary all the time. I think that Crosscurrent and Riptide were steps in the right direction. With both being small, self-contained adventures dealing with Jaden and his supporting cast. Those are the kind of novels that are needed right now, especially as they set up the perfect reasoning for Luke and his family to be excluded to the point where it's believable. Luke was seen once in Ripdtide I believe where Jaden reported in on his mission and never again. The character of Luke Skywalker wasn't diminished as he had a good reason for not being present, and the spotlight stayed on the main character of the novel, Jaden. The exact same thing could be done with Zekk, Raynar, Lowie, or any Jedi they've ever named or choose to name and develop.

 

And how is it okay to kill each other after 40 years? Who the hell else does that? Why is it okay that Kenth Hamner was killed by a jedi?

 

The Jedi have, in all iterations, mostly been depicted with a few exceptional Jedi in starring or secondary roles:

Ulic Qel-Droma, Cay Qel-Droma, Tott Doneeta, Nomi Sunrider, Arca Jeth, Thon.

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker.

Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Anakin Solo, Ben Skywalker.

The problem with post-ROTJ in general is that you've gotten the Skywalker dynasty dominating the plot. Additionally, another issue is that the protagonists are no longer fighting for the government that the Rebellion of the OT fought to establish, but instead are more concerned with the Jedi order. They've even overthrown the government to advance the cause of the Jedi order. The Jedi order and the Republic are symbolic of the symbiosis that the balance of the Force represents; the EU is mimicking the dissolution of that symbiotic relationship without the subtext that the prequel films have regarding balance.

If there's a Jedi centric focus, I'm partial toward the Tales of the Jedi depiction. You can't really argue that any one of those characters was more important than the others and it was a true ensemble cast. Luke is too dominant a character in the post-NJO for that to occur now, though it did occur during the NJO. But I'm also partial toward the more balanced approach to storytelling that Bantam had when Luke was the only Jedi, with Corran, Leia, and Mara being partially trained and being a fighter pilot, diplomat, and smuggler in addition to that training. That's not to say I want the Jedi order to be laid low again, but it might be wise to take one or two Jedi characters and give them an ensemble cast of friends that aren't Jedi, and maybe make the problems less concerning for the Jedi so there's no reason for other Jedi to become involved. With the Sith as the antagonists, this can't really be achieved.

 

Because Saba Sebatyne is never wrong and Kenth was dooming the Jedi's principals by trying to moderate a crisis rather than escalate it.
Oh wait, sorry, that was Troy Denning's idea of how the world works.