BTS JW Rinzler's 'Making of Return of the Jedi'

oierem , compare the beginning of the ESB book to the ROTJ one. The ESB one has pages dedicated to pictures of GL's notes, transcriptions of them regarding the direction the overall saga would take in addition to the story of the episode being worked on... MoROTJ seems to have mostly just the outlines, story conferences, and drafts. It's possible GL resolved the Other and any circa-1980 thoughts about the overall saga without writing anything down, but if so that is quite different from the process behind the other films, no?

EDIT. A lot of the story of ROTJ seems to be figured out in the story conferences instead of in notes. But the Other still is assigned without any thought process presented. And there is little about ROTJ's possible place in any Trilogy of Trilogies or how Leia became the Sister. Those seem like the kinds of things there might be notes about, but there isn't really anything (unless I missed it). So either GL didn't make any notes (which seems unlike how he did the other movies), the notes were lost (possible), or Rinzler, for whayever reason, wasn't allowed to show them.

 

Did he came back? the only source supporting that is that very early press report, and could very well be a polite way of saying that Kurtz would not be involved but hadn't been fired. After all, Kurtz is not credited at all in the final movie, and there is no evidence in the whole book that he did contribute to the picture (other than one or two visits to the set -Kershner and Spielberg also visited the set).

In general, the consultant title seems to be an empty credit to me.

 

I'm not saying you're clearly wrong, but I think you may be trying to look too hard for something that never existed (perhaps because zombie makes a big point in his book about how Lucas totally changed the direction of the Saga, hastily resolving all the loose ends, making it more of a children's movie and unoficially cancelling the ST -which is a necessary statement if you want to justify why you think the movies got worse after Empire, but doesn't necessarily have to be true).

After the first movie,the direction of the overall saga was being worked out, but the idea that episodes IV,V and VI would form a cohesive trilogy was quickly set in stone, and Empire was made with that in mind. It is possible that Lucas didn't spend a lot of time re-designing the saga after Empire: he just knew that a third movie was necessary, and he sort of didn't want to think about any other future movies at the moment. That's it. Maybe there wasn't any significant change made to the saga between Empire and Jedi.

 

Oh, sure it's an empty credit, and I don't think he really 'contributed' to ROTJ in any meaningful way. It does answer a few questions, for me, at least - whether or not he was thrown out of the SW family for good after ESB and became bitter because of it (no), the mentions of his having occasionally been around while ROTJ was being made (yes), and whether or not his own recollections about how the story of ROTJ was developed were based on anything beyond what may have been brought up during the story development of ESB (no).
His role as 'production consultant' on ROTJ might have been nothing more than letting LFL know the best cab company to use while in England, where to buy cheap set materials in California, and so on - if that. He'd have still been handy to keep in contact with, though.

 

so you think that Lucas had already decided during Empire that Leia would be the Other and that the Emperor would be killed in ROJ etc. ?

 

Leia-no, it's pretty clear that he decided she was the sister in the third undated summary for ROTJ -but in the film itself, the fact that she is the sister is not very relevant (except for a moment which would be added during production). The Other may or may not have been important for the sequel trilogy. (and yes, I would have liked to see something more about how and why did Lucas decide making Leia the sister/other). Other than that, it's just a thrown-away plot development which doesn't affect the film.

The Emperor killed? Maybe yes, since the trilogy was meant to end with the destruction of the Empire and the final confrontation between Luke and Vader, and the ST set decades into the future, so it's probable that the Emperor would've been destroyed in ROTJ (the idea of not showing the Emperor until the last movie was from an earlier plan).

It's difficult to know what did Lucas think about episode VI when making Empire, but we know that: it would end the Rebels vs. Empire plot, that Luke and Vader would face each other one last time (and only one of them would survive). And Lucas had always wanted to include a "primitives vs. Empire" forest battle. There you have the basis of ROTJ: the final confrontation against the Empire with the help of primitive warriors and the final confrontation between Luke-Vader-Emperor (with most of the story conference and script changes devoted to that section of the movie,which was naturally evolving from the "I am your father" revelation), plus a new and improved mupped show on Tatooine as a way to bring back Han Solo and provide some filler (nothing about condensing the scripts for the ST into one movie).

 

I'm aware of Lucas saying to alan arnold in '79/'80 that ROJ would have another duel between Luke and Vader and only one would survive . But -

What evidence is there that Lucas said (during ESB or before May '80) that ROJ would end the war between the rebels and empire and that the empire would be destroyed .?

 

Because the next trilgy would happen decades into the future with a totally different cast (except for the droids). I can't look up for quotes now, but I do recall Lucas talking about that.

 

but I don't see how that proves your idea that he planned on finishing off the empire in ROJ .

also - didn't mark hamill say back in the 80's that Lucas had mentioned he'd be in the 3rd trilogy ?

 

oierem , it's entirely possible that some of my comments and hopes overshoot what is actually realistic. But as you also noted, it would have been nice to see some information on how and why Leia became Luke's sister AND the Other. That's something that Lucas certainly had to work through at some point. And your depiction of how GL might have been thinking of the overall saga seems reasonable, though the way Lucas spoke about the saga and the sequels even then makes me think there could be/have been some period notes on it. He was telling Alan Arnold, some of his actors, etc, little bits and pieces, it sounds like. I wouldn't be surprised if the scrap thoughts that lead to those anecdotes were written down somewhere.

After seeing how Kasdan approached SW in the story conferences, it'll be interesting to see how the current ST works with him having some degree of creative control. And I'm sure he would go back to some of the unused ideas that he liked from the OT era in writing the ST...

 

Maybe nothing specifically from 'May of 80' - or during ESB at all - but.........

.....in Dec of '75 - in a meeting with author Alan Dean Foster, when discussing sequels (as books), he said that "book three" would be the end of the Rebel vs. Empire conflict. So, a 'trilogy' format for SW goes back to the pre-production period of the first film.

 

gezvader28 , if a sequel trilogy had a different cast/characters but the Empire/Emperor was still around, then it wouldn't be Luke and our heroes of SW who take him down, and I think I had the impression from MoESB that GL wanted them to be the ones to triumph. It is 'from the adventures of Luke Skywalker,' after all.

 

thats interesting , but these book ideas were long before the movie was such a hit . Kurtz's memories of the story outlines are what Lucas came up with shortly after SW was a hit .

what we need to bear in mind is that at different periods / circumstances Lucas had different outlines and plans . Now I'm not someone who minds that Lucas has said different things over the years , in fact I think its inevitable . But I do believe Kurtz , can't see any reason he'd make stuff up , and it does fit . And I do think that in 1980 Lucas decided that his plans for the 3rd trilogy were a bit vague and he couldn't see himself making 9 of these things 'cos they were so damn hard , so he collapsed the 'Other' storyline and the longer Emperor storyline into ROJ


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Both of those things are mentioned in the ESB notes/story conferences: in a later episode they would find/deal with Luke's sister (which is a very similar if not identical idea as the Other) and the Emperor would be defeated in the last episode. So in that sense he did 'collapse' those things into ROTJ. What we don't know much about is how these ideas did or did not evolve in the later stages of Empire and the earliest Jedi, or how they relate to the 1979 Trilogy of Trilogies description (or the later descriptions of a ST focusing on rebuilding the Republic and passing on what you have learned. Though there is a line about that in the ROTJ conferences, talking about "the Other.")

 

THanks!

So, we can say that, by the time Empire was being produced (and possibly AFTER Lucas decided that Vader was the father and therefore limited the number of episodes to nine) that episode VI would feature the final confrontation between Rebels and Empire (with the help of a primitive race, a remanent from the original draft) and the final confrontation between Vader, Luke and (most possibly) the Emperor, in which one of them (obviously killing Luke was never his intention) would die. As you can see, the basis of episode 6 was already in place and didn't change much.

Even Kurtz says that episode 6 was meant to end with the Empire being destroyed, but with a bittersweet ending (Luke walking off alone and Leia ruling her people).

 

well hang on , it depends when you're talking about . I'd say things changed a lot from '79 to '81 , big ideas such as the Other and when the emperor would appear , when he would die etc. , Vader getting Luke to join him , the Other being a new character , when she'd appear , then becoming Leia , these things have a massive impact on how ROJ turned out .


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All those things are basically two:
-the Oher becoming Leia: this happened around the first notes made for ROTJ in late 1980-early 1981, and doesn't have a massive impact on the movie (you could take out the revelation and the movie would barely change)

-the Emperor appearing and being killed. As the quotes provided by Darth_Nub prove, by the time Lucas had designed a trilogy of trilogies (1979) he had decided that the ST would follow new characters and the rebuilding of the Republic, therefore, episode VI would see the end of the Empire (and logically the Emperor), and the final encounter between Vader and Luke. The details about this personal confrontation would evolve (and the making of book explains the evolution very well).

 

no , the Other was always a massive plot point from as soon as it was mentioned in ESB , for the audience going into ROJ the 2 big questions were : is Vader really Luke's father and who is the Other ? If the revelation is that its someone else then that leads to a whole other storyline . If its not answered at all then that's a big question mark . Plus making it Leia has always been one of the most controversial story points , many fans felt it was just too pat and that Lucas had shoehorned it in that it didn't really make sense .

as for the Emperor - even during the story conferences for ROJ Lucas wasn't sure whether to include the Emeperor in ROJ

thirdly - the storyline of Vader wanting Luke to join up with him changed focus , this was something Kurtz mentioned and Kasdan refers to it in the story conferences for ROJ .

 

The Other- what I meant is that IN THE FINISHED MOVIE the Other doesn't have any big impact. It is possible that during the making of Empire the Other was supposed to be a huge part of episode VI (but there is absolutely no evidence backing this up, and nobody is claiming that), or it's possible that the Other was meant to be a key character in the ST (as TSHOSW argues), or it is possible that Lucas didn't have any specific ideas about that other.

The Emperor: the Emperor is featured in every single draft of episode VI, prior and after to the story conferences. At no point in the story conferences is seriously considered to drop the emperor (as it would totally change the story, which was pretty established by that point).

Vader wanting Luke to join up with him changed focus constantly, yes. That's the main thing that evolved from 1979 to 1981 and the Making Of book explains it all with lots of details. But even if we believe Kurtz's version, episode VI was meant to end with Luke alive after having killed Vader, so I don't see such a huge difference.


I think we may be going in circles here. My point is that the Making Of book doesn't feature any early draft containing huge deviations from the finished picture (except for variations on how to resolve the Luke-Vader-Emperor triangle, but it would always end with the former vanquishing the later two) because there wasn't any: the basic strokes for episode VI were already in place in 1979: the Rebels win a final battle against the Empire with the help of primitive aliens, Vader is somehow killed and Luke is victorious and Han is rescued (as promised in Empire).

(and I don't think Kurtz's statements have anything to do with all this, because he doesn't question any of that: he only said that the tone of the ending was meant to be different, with Han being killed and Luke and Leia feeling isolated, but that doesn't change the fact that the Rebels and Luke would win).

 

I think what oierem meant is that if there was no mention of the Other in ROTJ, the structure of the movie would stay almost exactly the same. Obi-Wan and Yoda wouldn't mention it, Leia would merely tell Luke to run away when he talked to her about Vader sensing his presence (which is exactly what they talk about in the story conference...), Vader would use something else to goad Luke into fighting, and maybe it'd turn out that Leia just was more attracted to Han. I do agree that it was/is a big deal to fans, but it could have been resolved in a variety of ways. I just wish we knew more about what sorts of those ways, if any, occurred to or were discussed among the filmmakers between the version that would have Luke looking for his lost sister, not-Leia, in, say, Episode XI before taking on the Emperor, and the version where Luke would just happen to have been adventuring with his lost sister, Leia, all along. I get the sense that from the time of the 'Nellith' idea, Lucas was interested in having twin Jedi around before the Emperor was dethroned. Perhaps this necessitated (in his mind) the resolution of the Sister plot point in Star Wars III, as opposed to putting it off to the (Trilogy of Trilogies-version) Post-Imperial Sequels.

As for the Emperor appearing or not in ROTJ, I am not sure of the thinking/quotes on that. Regarding the Trilogy of Trilogies, it does seem like Lucas had remarkably consistent ideas for what would happen in the "prequel" and "original" time periods, even down to the Sister being found before the Emperor was taken down. But in the Making of SW and ESB, Lucas doesn't seem to really mention any ideas he had for what happened after the Empire. This goes along with some of his period and later quotes about how he had enough material for six and added another trilogy, or how the sequels were "out there somewhere" or "ethereal." However, when he describes the Trilogy of Trilogies or talks to Denise Worrell, it feels like he has something actually in mind. What was this? Something else I kind of expected them to be thinking about around the time of ROTJ, but of which there doesn't seem to be any mention. Maybe they really didn't do much thinking about that kind of thing at the time, but the way Lucas talks, it seems like he must have. But then, the Icons interview is from later in the 80s, right? Maybe the details Lucas mentions in it are things he only came up with after the release of ROTJ.

 

Hit post too early.

 

Very interesting. Is there more somewhere?

 

Okay, finally taking a better look. A few notes:

- On page 9, there is a quote from Lucas on finishing off the middle trilogy. "Nothing really goes on to the next trilogy [.]" Unclear if he means 'next' as in the one chronologically after, or the next one to be produced (probably the Prequels), but if he meant the Sequels, this could be relevant.

- As Nub noted, same page, Kazanjian says that by the summer of 1980, he was talking to Lucas about "maybe" who the Other would be.

-Page 11: mentions of pre-outline notes, but it's hard to tell how much detail is present or missing; there doesn't seem to be as much as in MoESB, and there are fewer pictures of them.

-The Netherworld of the Force and its relationship to the real galaxy doesn't seem very well defined. There are the bits about Ben and Yoda coming back to life (known for a long time). Given that Father Skywalker and Ben talk about the paths between the Netherworld and reality (if I recall) in the Brackett draft, at around the same time they're talking about the Sister... what if the Other could have, at some point, had something to do with that? It seems to have been in Lucas's mind concurrently. (Not a totally serious suggestion, but it doesn't seem too impossible either.)

I guess that could tie in with the 'Shaman of the Whills' thing from much later, which Nub once half-joked (not sure if serious?) might have been the last remnants of a hook to the Sequel Trilogy.

- Page 11, there's mention of the supposed matted-in Jabba for Star Wars. Haven't seen description of the storyboards, which must have been from around the time of ROTJ and so would seem to fit in here.

- Same page, Lucas was deliberately doing a 'faster and more intense' version of the original The Star Wars. The Jabba part was pretty much "an afterthought" to get Han back and revisit Tatooine.

- The first outline has Luke training with Yoda in between ESB and ROTJ.

-Not sure why I never noticed this before, but the bit where they become friends with the natives in the The Star Wars story, the part where they become friends with the chieftain in some of the older ESB versions, and the bits with Wicket and the ewoks are all pretty much the same idea being cut until it can be inserted into the narrative. Super obvious, but I just didn't pick up on it.

-The Empire has a "V-Ray gun" that they use as bait for the Rebels. Obviously this became the DS superlaser, but I wonder if these "V-Rays" were supposed to have any interesting effects (if they were thought about at all).

- Apparently there's talk of possible peace negotiations (between the Rebels and Empire, it seems). This seems to be part of the Empire's trap, probably, but just imagine... if the middle trilogy had ended with a peace accord (like TPM). Luke (the Jedi) argues that the Rebels should attack while they still can.

- In the second outline, the Rebels have a giant ray gun that Rinzler speculates they might be aiming at the Death Star or Had Abbadon. (This planet-emplaced gun seems like it shares conceptual provenance with the Ion Cannon, to me.) Using the gun doesn't work, and again there is mention of peace talks, with Luke disagreeing again.

-The third outline shares the beginning with outline II, but in it there are two Rebel guns, one of which is used against Had Abbadon.

- Page 16, a drawing of a palace-building could either be on Sicemon (the Rebel staging place) or Jabba's Palace on Tatooine. Rinzler says that ideas and places "collided" at this point in the process. It would be nice to have more detail about what else was still swirling and colliding at that point.

- In the rough draft, the Emperor refers to himself as "we." Is this the royal 'we,' or referring to the Emperor plus his advisors, or is he perhaps an amalgam of people or spirits?

- The rough draft has Vader trying to join forces with Luke, or make Luke join with him. And there are dream sequences, which I imagine as somewhat Lynchian.

- Here the Netherworld has a kind of time limit; one has special powers while in it, but one must either return to the material world within a given time, or fade into the Force itself.

- The Falcon is at one point used for a maneuver very like the Galactica planet-drop from new Battlestar. It comes out of hyperspace right into the atmosphere of a moon, looking like a meteor.

- In the rough draft, the Emperor calls Luke "every inch [his father] when he first came to me." This would go along with a Prequel story in which Anakin is very similar to Luke, but fails where Luke succeeds (as opposed to what was finally filmed, in which Anakin's arc is a bit more differentiated).

- Going along with what I speculated earlier with the Other maybe at some point having to do with the Netherworld... at one point Ben says to the Emperor that Luke has many allies with Ben and Yoda. "Many others" survived - which I take to mean, many other Jedi survived the Jedi Purge, by using the same technique that Ben did on the Death Star. There is no way to 'ghost' through the Dark Side though; perhaps this was why Ben's actions seemed to puzzle Vader in Star Wars. Or maybe Vader was just arrogant about the capabilities of the dark side vs. the light, the same as the Emperor is in this conversation in the rough draft.

- In the rough draft, it seems that the Rebel Guns are Ion Cannons, in fact. One to take out the Empire's communications and one to take out the shield generator, to that proton torpedoes can be used on the Death Stars.

- Anakin is an old man when he returns from the Netherworld, in this version.

-The Klingon dog from The Search for Spock originated as a design that didn't make it to Jabba's Palace.

- Page 40, Marquand said he had a conversation with Lucas about the saga, what it was "really about," etc.

- Rodis-Jamero wanted the ewoks to be kind of bystanders to the Rebel-Empire war. They'd watch from the trees, but not participate.

- The McQuarrie design for Tyderium looks like a nice callback to the long Falcon.

- One Rodis-Jamero concept for Jerjerrod looks very much like the skeletal Nemoidians from before they were going to be people in suits.

- In the Rough Draft, Luke is captured by the Emperor's agents on Tatooine, so that Vader can't get to him first. They use a cage with electrified bars (much like in the comic Dark Empire - which might have gotten the idea from here).

- Vader says to the Emperor that it's Vader's place to train his son, Luke. This could relate to the 'I am a Jedi like my father before me and his father before him' that I seem to recall coming in a later draft. Perhaps the familial aspect to Jedi was more standard here?

- The relationship between Ben, Yoda, Anakin, and the Emperor is much closer/more familiar here than I would have guessed, given the final film. It's much more like how it turned out in the prequels (where they all knew each other well and seem to have spent enough time around one another to be familiar).

- I still wonder how attached they were to the notion that Leia was the Sister and the Other, even after the Rough Draft and the story conferences. In the excerpts of the conferences, they don't use Leia's name when talking about the Other. Given the amount of discussion this started in the fandom, wouldn't the filmmakers have thought about it in detail too, probably?

- In the story conferences, when they talk about Ben coming back at the end as a ghost, Lucas talks about how the guardian angels are there and Luke has the power to see them. This may resolve whether anyone else could see them in ROTJ?

- "The Skywalker line is very strong with the Force." Ben says to Mrs. Skywalker that they should protect the kids because "they may be able to help us right the wrong your husband has created in the universe." Ben doesn't help raise Luke because Ben's a wanted man. All of that makes sense to me; doesn't require a 'Chosen One' and also doesn't require the struggle seen in the OT to be a be-all, end-all Light-Dark forever type of thing. It relates to those sides but doesn't make the whole structure of the universe forevermore hinge on the outcome.

- Ben feels guilty for training Anakin because it was his pride that led him to think he could train a Jedi as well as Yoda could (still in the movie, but perhaps not as focused on in the Prequels as I'd expect). Ben feels he "should have sent [Anakin] to Yoda." Where was Yoda? On Dagobah? Did Yoda ever meet Anakin? This sounds a bit different than the eventual Prequel conception. Especially because Lucas describes Yoda and the Emperor as a different class of Force-user than the others; they're less active, they're grand priests, chiefs. I'd say they're gurus.

- I get why Lucas avoided making it explicit that Vader wanted to turn Luke and both of them take down the Emperor - he thought it would tip off the end of the movie too explicitly. But at the same time, it was already in Empire...

- I like the idea, in some concept art, that the Empire was chopping down the forests, being explicitly anti-environment.

- Page 73: Kasdan asks if the Emperor (or maybe Vader) knows about the Sister, in a discussion about the confrontation scene. Lucas realizes that if you bring that up, you kind of have to deal with the characters thinking about it and knowing about it...

- I like the idea that Vader might have had a little gray beard under his mask.

- Interesting that even major cast members weren't to be told of the Other/Sister point (and who knows what else); Harrison Ford wanted Han to be killed, and Marquand wasn't allowed to tell him the resolution (including evidently that Han gets Leia).

- Page 88: Taiko drumming instead of Yub Nub for the celebration?

- Page 89: They were experimenting with ways to actually build the Emperor's lava lair as a set, before they were told this was cut from the film. Interesting how far that (Had Abbadon) went.

- Page 96: Maybe the Owen-as-Ben's-brother came from Kasdan, not Lucas, and they just went along with it?

- I like Luke's frustration with Ben in this version of the Dagobah conversation (pp. 95-96). Though it matches the quick-to-anger personality of when he first arrived on Dagobah, not necessarily the Jedi he has grown to be.

- Vader is elderly, with a white beard. He throws the Emperor through a window into space... how do he and Luke survive this?

- The "...and his father before him" is in the Revised Second Draft.

- Alan Rickman auditioned for Jerjerrod.

- Page 117: The concept art of grotesque helmetless Vader.

- Page 169: I like the focus on compassion even for the damned, as Vader gets to ghost too. Kazanjian gets this pointed out to him by Lucas.

- The "bury your feelings deep down [...], they could be made to serve the Emperor" was an addition after the writing/filming(?) of the scene with Vader motivating Luke by threatening to turn the Sister (p. 175).

- Page 180: An unused idea for the interior superstructure chase: the Imperials opening gates to let out nuclear waste to slow down/damage the Rebel fightercraft.

- "Y manu machoo Vader con yum num." (p. 271)

- Page 314: I wondered why that explosion was so huge...

- Page 328: Warwick Davis's letter to GW is pretty cool.

 

I wasn't joking, but I acknowledged from the start that it's complete speculation on my part, and without any real evidence to back it up (and not something I'd bother arguing too hard for as a result). Given what little has ever been revealed about the ST, there's not much else you can do but speculate and grasp at whatever straws the existing films provide.

That said, I don't think it's too ridiculous to think that the ST was going to address 'higher concpets' regarding the Force, nor that it might yet do so. There's always been an interest in the Netherworld of the Force in GL's thinking, something he's never quite explored as deeply as he might have liked - there's this abandoned material from ROTJ, both he & Rick McCallum referred to it during the AOTC era and said Obi-Wan's line in SW/ANH ("If you strike me down...) would be explained further in ROTS, then there's the scenes deleted from ROTS.

But like I said, it's just speculation, backed up by what could barely be called circumstantial evidence.