CT Just realized this...

When Luke fell into the abyss in Cloud City on Bespin, he was committing suicide. He'd rather be dead than have Vader as his father and rule beside him, and there was no alternate way.

 

Are you sure he was committing suicide?? He was able to sense the Force at that point, even though he couldn't control it... I propose that he wasn't committing suicide but instead trusting the will of the Force... by releasing himself into the abyss and knowing that there would be an alternative escape path opened to him.

 

Pretty much, which is why I never liked the Scream they added to the scene later. I much perfered Luke silently falling, accepting the choice he made.

But the Force doesn't try to keep people alive at all costs. If it did, why wouldn't it "lead" Obi-wan down a different path to the Falcon? luke has no way of knowing if he'd get sucked into whatever that tube was, that there would be a weather vien there for him to hold onto, that Leia and co. would be in a position to come save him.

 

I don't disagree... however I would respond by suggesting that the "will of the Force" allowed Luke to know that there was an alternative to continuing the fight there, or succumbing to the Dark Side. And I will also agree with you again that Luke most likely has NO idea what lies below, or the specifics of the events to come... only that the Force allowed him to "see" this alternative to remaining on that pedestal.

Remember the exchange from EpIV...
Luke - You mean it controls your actions?
ObiWan - Partially - but it also obeys your commands.
I would suggest that it can be interpreted that the Force is continually exchanging information with the Jedi (or host).

Even in Ep* you see this with Qui-Gon...
"They continually speak to us. Telling us the will of the Force.... When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them talking to you too."

 

Yeah he was committing suicide no doubt about it.

 

So did the will of hte Force also let him know he could turn his father and blow up the death star? Does everything Luke is never once at risk or makes a hard choice because the force is always keeping him alive. And why didn't the force save poor Obi-wan on the Death Star? Why didn't it tell Leia to move her arm in RotJ?

He did see an alternative, death. I'm pretty sure Lucas talksa bout this on the commentary tracks on the movies.

If the Force was able to "Will" the Jedi out of and around dangerous situations why do Jedi ever die? Why did it allow Qui-Gon be put in a position to be seperated from Obi-wan? Why didn't it make Anakin go see Padme instead of following Mace? Why didn't it tell Mace to bring more Jedi with him? Why was EVERY SINGLE JEDI surprised by Order 66? etc.....

 

I understand your points... they are good ones. ...and I have to admit that I did not listen to the commentary you speak of. I was just forwarding it on as a theory.

The only response I can give you to any of this is that however you define the "grand plan" of the universe - it is defined by the "will of the Force." As QuiGon says in EpI... "Nothing happens by accident." So ultimately, it was the will of the Force to have those Jedi (and others) die in that time and place... Remember that ultimately, the entire six movies are around the prophecy of the Chosen One coming to pass... and that prophesy originated with the will of the Force.

 

The problem then is, there is no point behind any characters actions. Obi-wan didn't sacrifice himself, the force willed it. Palpatine didn't master mind the Jedi down fall, the Force Willed it. Luke didn't run out on his training early, the force willed it. Han wasn't in any danger when Jabba had him, the Force Willed it. Neither Death Star was ever a threat, the Force willed them destroyed etc.....

 

Luke was a naive and stupid (barely trained) jedi at the time.

His mind was clouded, he jumped off cuz he saw no other way of escape. Just a confused kid, pretty much.

 

I don't disagree at all... it's very much similar to modern day discussion on fate v. self determination. The debate between a God with an all-knowing plan v. people who controlling their own lives. Those arguments also lead back to the conclusions you have drawn....

Maybe my argument should be restructured to say, "Was Luke communing with the Force in a way that allowed him to know that there was a "way out" by releasing into the abyss within Cloud City?" Which I would answer Yes.

 

I wouldn't exactly say that Luke was committing suicide. The script describes Luke's action before letting go as a calm that comes over him. It is possible that in that moment, he chose to trust the Force that he could get away from Vader, but not die. At which point, he fell and then was sucked in by the reactor shaft.

 

"Trust your feelings", "Let go your conscious self and act on instinct" and all that sort of thing?

 

Nah, I think Luke thinks he is committing suicide. He thinks it's either death or join Vader, so he chooses death.

 

I think you and darth-sinister have both said it much better than I.

 

Exactly. In that moment, Luke could feel the Force despite the turmoil and conflict within his mind about Vader's revelation. But what is clear is that he demonstrates to Vader that he is rejecting the offer to become an agent of evil. Unintentionally, it makes Vader ponder Luke's actions which is why he didn't kill Piett when the Falcon got away.

 

Agree. He just happened to get sucked into...whatever it was that he fell into.

 

And if that instinct was to kill himself?

 

Since he didn't die, a case could be made that it wasn't "an instinct to kill himself".

 

Because he got sucked into that vent, something he didn't anticipate.

 

The theory is "The Force told him to let go, reassuring him that it would all be for the best."

Thus, getting sucked into the vent doesn't come as a surprise, but a fulfilment of the reassurance.

 

Whether he expected to die or not, its a great **** you to Vader. I always liked that Vader thinks Luke has no choice but of course its Luke Skywalker, he would rather "die" than turn.

 

Great thought HevyDevy. Think about what a crappy day Vader just had... Got sliced on the arm by his son, then cut off his son's hand, then had his son choose dropping into an abyss over joining him.... Parent-of-the-Year material....

 

And thus no choice any character makes has any meaning or value. Hell, why would Luke even go in the first place, if the Force would just let him know that nothing good would come it?

 

Because the promptings of the Force tend to come, as Yoda puts it "when you are calm, at peace, passive".

Luke wasn't exactly calm when he had all those visions of Leia & Han in pain. Though he looks to calm himself, just before he lets go on Bespin.

 

He looks at peace because he thinks suicide is a way out.

Not at all surprising after being told that Vader was his father.

Vader tells him that he is beaten, that it's pointless to resist, there is no escape, that joining him is the only way.

Luke sees another way, death. That solution is the calm that came over him.

There's no proof either way, but I don't see anything to make me think that Luke thought he'd survive, or that he was at all conscious of the Force prompting him to fall, or that his instincts told him to or any of that stuff. It's just not there.

I can see this going in circles for several pages.