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PT Would it have been better if Dooku was given screentime in EP I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    It reflect people's idea about it. If we got by the general audience' comment, the review might be even worse.

    Most reviewers gave EP I and II much less score than the old trilogy. Even Return of the Jedi has 8.4, Revenge of the Sith has 7.7, and both EP I &II has below 7.
     
  2. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    It reflects some people's idea about it, not most people's idea. Even when assuming that reviewers' opinions reflect those of the general population--which is a faulty assumption--the majority of reviewers liked AOTC just fine--as, by the way, did the majority of IMDb voters. Ergo, even when we consider reviewers to be representative of the general population, the notion that "most people" have some kind of negative feeling about this is not supported. At all.



    Irrelevant. Additionally, not that simple:
    http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sta...uels_actually_better_reviewed_than_originals/
     
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  3. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    +1. I mean, simply for storytelling purposes, they needed a Sith Lord to duel with at the end of E2. Couldn't reveal Sidious at the point because the time was not yet right, so they had to create a filler Sith Lord.

    I like the character and I like the way he eventually dies, but yes I do think it could have been improved upon. Of course I say the exact same thing about Maul.
     
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  4. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Evidence other than the box office?




    I don't see proof of it, how did he get the result of that score? At that time there was no internet, we can only dig up a few reviews from the newspapers.

    It's not that simple.

    Sidious needed a important figure to bring up the Clone Wars, to help form a force to battle the Republic, since he could not always stay with the CIS. Maul could not do such thing, he was just an assassin.

    At the same time, Lucas needed more than Qui Gon, who was already dead, to show the flaw of the Republic and the Jedi Order.

    Dooku is used to fill both's gap as well as his own unique usefulness.
     
  5. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Special Edition-ing Dooku in on the council in "Menace" might be a fun bit. I don't think it would undermine what we know of the character in "Clones" and "Sith" if he just sat there silently like half the council does anyway. Hell, it'd probably make it better cuz when he first talks to Obi-Wan in AOTC it'd be like, "Oh, yeah, he's talking about Qui-Gon! He was in that scene in the other movie!"
     
  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How is that even related to what's being discussed or necessary to the main story of the movies?

    *Sigh*

    Please learn the meaning of fallacy and ad populum.

    That doesn't apply to those who haven't seen the OT beforehand.

    Sure...
     
  7. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Of course it's related.

    PT isn't just about Anakin's downfall, especially EP I and EP III had a lot to do with the politics, about how did the Republic and the Jedi Order was destroyed within. Thus the Clone Wars is very important, because it was the major turning point of their downfall, Anakin also grew through the war from a young Jedi to be a hero, also has the pride and anger grow inside of him.

    There is the proof.


    Darth Vader isn't popular enough?

    Even if we say many people didn't know OT, in the novel of EP I, in the interview, the novel and Lucas clearly mentioned the Sith organization was created by Fallen Jedi. If he just wanted to show Jedi can fall, the Lost Twenty info is far from enough, but no, Dooku's purpose it not just that. And I already explained it.



    ?
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    They didn't need to kill Maul. He would have served exceptionally as a villain for all 3 PT movies.
     
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  9. sluggo1313.

    sluggo1313. Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Grevious could have filled that void nicely as well.

    Different people reviewing different movies at different times. For that to mean anything you also have to look how all movies were ranked in 77,80 and 83 in comparison to know how they were viewed. Just because the actual scores were lower (did they even gives back then, before the internet?) doesn't mean people thought less of them. The scale could just be different. For example, for YEARS only 1 or 2 games had gotten a 10 score from IGN, and that number has gone up drastically in the last few years, that doesn't mean they are making better games now then 5-10-15 years ago or that people like them better now, it just means the people reviewing the games today are more willing to give 10's, and the scale has shifted to be more inclusive of 10's today.

    That also doesn't mean people TODAY think the PT is as good or better then the OT. Lots of movies that were panned when they were released are seen as classics later on (Blade Runner and Scarface just to name a few). The general attitude about the PT and OT (from what I've seen online, in pop.culture and in my personal life) is that the OT is much more much liked and respected then the PT.

    I know people who love the OT and hate the PT. I don't know anyone who loves the PT but hates the OT.

    No reason hat person had to be Sith and someone like Maul or Grevious couldn't have filled the void left by Dooku.
     
  10. sluggo1313.

    sluggo1313. Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2013
    No reason he had to be a Sith though. And that figure could have be Sidious with Grevious or Maul being the person there keeping everyone in line.

    Different people reviewing different movies at different times. For that to mean anything you also have to look how all movies were ranked in 77,80 and 83 in comparison to know how they were viewed. Just because the actual scores were lower (did they even gives back then, before the internet?) doesn't mean people thought less of them. The scale could just be different. For example, for YEARS only 1 or 2 games had gotten a 10 score from IGN, and that number has gone up drastically in the last few years, that doesn't mean they are making better games now then 5-10-15 years ago or that people like them better now, it just means the people reviewing the games today are more willing to give 10's, and the scale has shifted to be more inclusive of 10's today.

    That also doesn't mean people TODAY think the PT is as good or better then the OT. Lots of movies that were panned when they were released are seen as classics later on (Blade Runner and Scarface just to name a few). The general attitude about the PT and OT (from what I've seen online, in pop.culture and in my personal life) is that the OT is much more much liked and respected then the PT.

    I know people who love the OT and hate the PT. I don't know anyone who loves the PT but hates the OT.
     
  11. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 1, 2012
    Regardless, it's irrelevant.
     
  12. sluggo1313.

    sluggo1313. Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 23, 2013
    what, the angry tomatoes chart that shows the PT was better reviewed then the OT?
     
  13. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Because he was a once great Jedi-turned Sith, he had ideas and belief but went to the dark path, his downfall would show the problem of the Jedi Order and the Republic, better than a pure Sith or a cyborg.

    Lucas wasn't trying to show "good nation/group got destroyed by evil", but good Republic/Jedi Order that went corrupt or too extreme, thus gave evil the chance to seduce people and make trimuph. Anakin was similar to them, he was a good individual with clear flaws, when his own flaw clashed with the Order's ,when both went too extreme, it was used by the evil.

    I don't think the PT are bad, actually the overall theme is even better than OT, but as a story it wasn't told well in the movies, partly because there was too much to cover, including characters, like Dooku.
     
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  14. sluggo1313.

    sluggo1313. Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 23, 2013
    Except we don't know Dooku. We don't know those ideals and beliefs. We don't know how great he was. Just like when we meet Vader for the time NO ONE felt sympathy for him because we didn't know him at all before he became Vader. Ultimately Dooku was a mouth piece that Grevious or Maul or a Sidious Hologram, or a non-Sith character could have been, and opponent for the good guys to fight, which Grevious and Maul could have been.

    I don't hate the PT either, I just think trying to argue that the PT was better received or better liked or something along those lines is silly and revisionist.
     
  15. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Exactly, because his story wasn't shown well, which is my point. Cut some stupid scenes of Jar Jar, let Dooku show up in EP I as the Jedi Master Dooku to let us see his idea, his conflict with the Order and his reaction after Qui Gon's death. That would have greatly helped move viewers know and understand him, as well as the problem of the Republic/Order, along with how sinister Palpatine really was. How he turned this once great Jedi Master into a tool to reach the throne and let Anakin fall.
     
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  16. sluggo1313.

    sluggo1313. Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 23, 2013
    Or keep TPM the way it is, and just have Maul escape instead of being killed, or introduce Grevious in AotC. Ultimately it doesn't really matter that the separatist leader is a Jedi/Sith, so either works (in fact, having fewer characters is probably the best way to go)

    This links up to a discussion in the EPisode VII forum, about planning the whole trilogy out better then PT was planned out. Had Lucas had stronger plan/idea for the PT this probably would have turned out differently.
     
  17. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Maul wasn't a Jedi-turned Sith, it's more tragic to see a once good nobleman fall in disgrace, and he could reflect the theme Lucas wanted to show.

    Sure it would have helped Maul's character, but I still think introduce Dooku would have been better. Since Dooku is a better choice to be the public face of CIS, use his charisma and speech to sway people to his side, even Sidious could not fill this role because of his secret identity. Maul was more like an assassin in the shadow, even in TCW he wasn't a "charming face" type of villain. I will think of how to improve Maul at the same time, maybe post my idea tomorrow.
     
  18. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    The problem with these complaints is that the saga is basically a story about the Skywalker family . . . or more importantly, Anakin and Luke.
     
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  19. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    This excuse strikes me as a bit hypocritical. You want Lucas to give more attention to supporting characters like Dooku in the PT, but you're willing to give him leeway for failing to do the same for characters like Leia and Han, who are bigger characters than Dooku? Because . . . the OT is a simpler story? Sorry . . . not buying it.
     
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  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Just because you don't know anyone who loves the PT but hates the OT doesn't mean they don't exist. Either way, it's irrelevant because the opinion of "most people" can't be measured, and even if it could it's not a valid argument.
     
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  21. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    But the PT isn't about knowing and understanding Dooku, its about Anakin's fall... not some old Master that is three generations removed, up the chain. Christopher Lee brought much to the table, but the role was rather pigeon holed and because of that, Dooku lacked something as a Sith... hence the creation of Ventress, Grievous, Savage and finally, the return of Darth Maul. I agree that it could have been handled differently, but am not convinced that things would been better. As it stands: Dooku, Savage and the droid general are all dead; Ventress is on the lamb and Maul is getting worked over in Palpatine's science lab, or something.:p
     
  22. DLINE

    DLINE Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 9, 2013
    No the movies were great and the actor had a lot of screen time in The Lord of the rings as soumomon. And thay count and s...... We're both the same evil.
     
  23. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    I'm not trying to say the OT is perfect or didn't have flaw, even Leia's character deserves more development. Han also could get some more in RotJ.

    However as movies, it was just focused on the battles against the Empire, so the problem is not as big as PT. And it's not a thread about it.

    PT is about the downfall of Anakin, the old Jedi Order and the Republic, especially TPM was more about the Old Republic and the Order than Anakin's development. Thus Dooku, as a Jedi turned Sith would help establish this better like I stated before. As for Sith, we have Palpatine.

    LotR is a good example, Saruman didn't show up in the book directly until the end of TT, but the movie gave him a lot more screen time and gave him powerful feat.
     
  24. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    I'm sorry, but I disagree. I find this insistence that Dooku should have been given more screen time irrelevant. And I'm beginning to wonder why some fans are becoming so obsessive over this subject. Dooku was nothing more than a tool for Palpatine to begin the Clone War and a foreshadow of Anakin's own downfall. I don't see why we have to investigate his background in such detail.
     
  25. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    It's just your view, in Palpatine's eyes, everyone is either asset or enemy, including Vader is just a tool for Palpatine to destroy the Jedi and hunt down the rebels. Should we cut time of Vader?
     
  26. sluggo1313.

    sluggo1313. Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 23, 2013
    But they don't need ANOTHER Jedi turned Sith, nor do they NEED a Jedi or a new character to be the leader of the Seperatists.



    If that person exists I'd be surprised. I've never met (in person or online) the fan who thinks the OT is bad but the PT is great. I've also never heard of anything calling themselves a OT Defender, I have heard people call them selves PT defenders.

    And no, you can get a gauge of the opinion/attitude of the majority. And the overriding opinion of the two trilogies is that the OT is stronger and better then the PT.