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yay triple post...

but here's the ref's explanation for the no call last night:

“There were two officials that came in. One was the umpire and the other one was our side judge and there was a discussion at that point as to the, in essence, the catchability of the ball due to its location. So it was determined at that point in time that when the primary contact occurred on the tight end that the ball, in essence, was coming in underthrown and in essence it was immediate at that point intercepted at the front end of the end zone. So there was a determination that, in essence, uncatchability, that the ball was intercepted at or about the same time the primary contact against the receiver occurred.”

http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/19/panthers-top-patriots-in-controversial-win/?eref

also, if you pause it just before the ball gets there, it's increasingly clear that gronk couldn't have gotten to it because lester was in way, way better position. that ball is never getting past him.

anyway, i'm done with this. what i think really doesn't matter since the greater football world thinks the pats got jobbed.

 

Ugh... I can't put up with this anymore...first the bizarre call against the Pats with the Jet's field goal and now this.

How many more games are going to end on terrible calls this season?

 

From the rulebook:
ILLEGAL CONTACT BEYOND FIVE-YARD ZONE
Article 3

Illegal Contact Beyond Five-Yard Zone.
Beyond the five-yard zone, if the player who receives the snap remains in the pocket with the ball, a defender may use his hands or arms only to defend or protect himself against impending
contact caused by a receiver. If the receiver attempts to evade the defender, the defender cannot initiate contact that redirects, restricts, or impedes the receiver in any way

DEFENSIVE HOLDING

Article 6 Defensive Holding
It is defensive holding if a player grasps an eligible offensive player (or his jersey) with his hands, or extends an arm or arms to cut off or encircle him. See 12-1-6.

Section 5 Pass Interference
DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition
.
It is pass interference by either team when any act by a player more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible receiver’s opportunity to catch the ball. Pass interference can only occur when a forward pass is thrown from behind the line of scrimmage, regardless of whether the pass is legal or illegal, or whether it crosses the line.
Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air.
Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air and Article 4 for prohibited acts prior to the pass.

PROHIBITED ACTS

Article 2 Prohibited Acts by both teams while the ball is in the air.
Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

(a) Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch.
(b) Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball.
(c) Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass.
(d) Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the player committing such act is playing the ball.
(e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball.
(f) Hooking an opponent in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the opponent’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving.
(g) Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.
Note: If there is any question whether player contact is incidental, the ruling should be no interference.
__________________________________________________________________


Any one of these infractions should have been called on this play - and it was initially called. But the next section bails out the ref in front of the Panther's home crowd:


PERMISSIBLE ACTS
Article 3 Permissible Acts by both teams while the ball is in the air.
Acts that are permissible by a player include, but are not limited to:

(a) Incidental contact by an opponent’s hand, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.
(b) Inadvertent tangling of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.
(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players, except as specified in 8-3-2 and 8-5-4 pertaining to blocking downfield by the offense.
(d) Laying a hand on an opponent that does not restrict him in an attempt to make a play on the ball.
(e) Contact by a player who has gained position on an opponent in an attempt to catch the ball.
___________________________________________________________________


"Clearly uncatchable" isn't what I'm seeing. It appears uncatchable due to Gronk being impeded away from the flight of the ball by Keuckly's contact while the ball was in the air. The refs got it wrong.

 

Belacheated. Sweet justice.

 

Kuechley had his arms around Gronk. Should have been defensive holding, no question (but not pass interference). Probably wouldn't have mattered anyway, but it was still a bad call.

 

if the ball is in the air that call is always pass interference and not holding. if the contact occurs but the ball is deemed uncatchable then there's no call. i actually agree with the call, but it just doesn't feel right to watch someone doing something so clearly illegal on the last play of a great game. what the hell was kuechly even doing? you can't just grab a guy like that. if brady just gets the ball in the air more then they have to call interference and the pats have it on the one. bizarre way to end the game.

 

It looks like--in slow motion--Gronk could have made a play on the ball if he hadn't been contacted, but the ball appears well underthrown anyway, so it's likely it would have been knocked down, if not intercepted, anyway.

 

Look at the gif, it wasn't!

 

I didn't actually see the game but have watched the clips and holy crap, how can anyone say that's not PI? That is textbook awful PI. Also, people don't seem to realize that it doesn't matter whether the receiver would have definitely caught the ball. "Uncatchable" only comes into play when it's insanely high, totally out of bounds, nowhere close, etc. So theorizing about whether Gronk could have made that catch if not for the PI is irrelevant. It was still a pass near him in the field of play and that makes it 100% pass interference. And I say this as someone who loathes Gronkowski. Loathes.

On the other hand, as much as I don't like to see any team cheated by the refs, I am glad it will make the Pats more pissed off next week when they host the Broncos.


On that note... at literally no point this season have I ever thought or said I thought the Chiefs could beat the Broncos in Denver. No way. I absolutely knew we were going to lose that game. And I know Denver's an overall better team than we are. I've never said the Chiefs are the best team. However, I do have to say that there is something to be respected about a team that plays one of its worst games in all phases (repeated bad play-calling from Reid, o-line dreadful and even worse once two guys were injured, defense not even trying to get pressure, even a horrible punt from Colquitt, who is the best player on our team along with Charles) and still manages to hold the Broncos to their fewest amount of points scored all year, and at Mile High.

I think anyone saying the Chiefs are just a total fraud team at this point is clearly a troll or just plain stupid. I also think anyone who doesn't understand how incredibly limiting our offense is and how you can't win that way in the post season unless maybe you're at home is really dumb. But honestly, all the sports talk in KC is saying that this game went about as expected and didn't really tell us anything we didn't know about this team. Even the lack of sacks is not new: it's been happening for about 4 weeks now, and clearly teams have adjusted. Our defense has also adjusted in most other areas.

The couple disappointing things about the game, though... Alex Smith actually did put the ball on some guys down field or in key moments, but as usual they dropped it. This is a hidden stat that most people who haven't paid close attention to our games won't realize. I'm not saying Smith is great, but I do think he has the worst offensive line in football and possibly the worst receiving corps as well. So I won't put it all on him.

The other thing is that Jamaal Charles, who's been getting 25-30 touches a game, only got 18 in this week's game. 18. For a guy who in this game was averaging 5 yards a carry and who in his career has the highest ypc of any running back in history (beating Jim Brown by .3 ypc currently). I get that we needed to open up a little more and stretch the field, but damn. You just can't win as the Chiefs this year without giving it to the guy who accounts for 38% of your total offensive yards more than 18 times.

So I think this game went maybe slightly worse than expected due to those factors, but for the most part it was as I thought. Our defense didn't get pressure or turnovers, but they did hold Peyton to one of his lower completion percentages of the season at, what, 55%? They stopped the Broncos four possessions in a row as well. But our offense just couldn't capitalize. Not without Jamaal, not without any freaking run-blocking for Jamaal from this atrocious o-line, and not with our receivers dropping every pass sent their way.

Again, I always, always expected to lose this game and that genuinely is not just apologetics. I'm pretty sure I even said so in the thread. But yeah, I thought the fact that they only lost by 10 (when many people thought they'd lose by much more) and held the Broncos to the fewest points this season at night, in Mile High, with a very young team not ready for the hype was decent. And it didn't really expose any problems with the team that observant folks didn't already know existed. It was frustrating that I think there actually were a couple opportunities for the Chiefs to make big plays that would have made it a lot more close. But even that sort of stuff is expected out of a team that has struggled to just get wide outs who can hold onto the ball for about 8 years.

Finally... the play of the game from Peyton was tackling Derrick Johnson on his fumble recovery. That was a TD and possible important change of momentum otherwise. The thing that kind of annoyed me was that DJ didn't just lower his shoulder and totally level Peyton. Fair game at that stage. I would have done it, but I'm sure there's something in your mind as a defensive player in that situation that makes you worry about being fined for smashing someone who makes the NFL a lot of money. Not that they'd ever do that sort of thing for star QBs.

Anyway, it's going to be closer I think at Arrowhead but we'll still have to play a hell of a game and need much more from Jamaal and the defense to win. I have few hopes that the o-line will do anything but collapse on Smith or that when he does put it on our receivers that they will actually catch it, because they haven't proved so far that they can even in easy circumstances. Either way, I will be at that game making some serious noise.

 

I think even Woody Paige said he thinks the Broncos will lose the game at Arrowhead...

And, PS -- to everyone, under no circumstances was the call at the end of the Pats game Defensive Pass Interference. It just wasn't. However, it was in all circumstances Defensive Holding and should have been an untimed down from the 13 yard line after a 5 yard penalty!

 

So theorizing about whether Gronk could have made that catch if not for the PI is irrelevant. It was still a pass near him in the field of play and that makes it 100% pass interference

My comment was more to the point that if the call had been made, it would have been unfortunate because he wouldn't have made the catch anyway; like when you see a holding call on the opposite side of the field of an otherwise incredible kick return that has nothing to do with the outcome of the play, but is called back regardless.

 

Gifs that sum up the week in football.

I think my favorite is the Vikings one.

 

Gruden was saying on the last play of the game you should grab, hold, do anything to stop a TD. Looks like his ideology worked. Mainly because refs are afraid to make calls on the last play when the game is on the line. Also ya never know what could happen on the next play.

 

the fat dude doing the belly shake is pretty awesome

 

Charges possible for Bills fan who fell off stadium at game.

 

As depressed as I am about the patriot's banged up defense, in which there seems to be a new injury every week, at least our offense is more or less intact now. I can't even imagine what it feels like to be a Green Bay fan right now...losing Cobb for several weeks, Rodgers for a little while, and Finley for the season must just be terrible.

I did read in a couple sources that there's a small chance all the patriots secondary starters might be active against the Broncos, but it would be a long shot...Gregory would be playing with a broken thumb, Dennard would be playing with a hurt knee, Talib still wouldn't be 100% and would be coming off a sub-par performance against the Panthers, and Arrington would be playing with his groin injury.

I think Denver's got this one. Thoughts?

 

This is true, all very good points. You've already made me think a little more positively about this game lol. I just worry, it's nice knowing you have a good secondary that can cover elite receivers...if the defense is still this banged up come sunday, the offense is the only thing that's going to beat Denver.

Then again, even with our cornerbacks healthy, the offense still would probably be the deciding factor against Denver, so who knows.

 

so... why is it that it seems like truly great running backs keep getting stuck on crappy teams? AP, tomlinson wasn't really ever on a great team, barry sanders, stephen jackson, etc, etc, etc. kinda odd how that happens so much.

 

I think Denver pulls out the win. I think it will be fairly close, like 27-17. No blow out or anything. Denver spreads the ball out so well that New England's beat up secondary shouldn't be able to keep up. The Patriots have been giving up a decent amount of points in their last three games. If the Patriots get healthy this week I think it's a whole different game though. I look forward to watching this one, another huge playoff picture game.

 

I hope Denver puts up at least 50 points on them. What goes around and whatnot...

 

I just want Wes Welker to score 4 TDs or something. I still can't believe they gave him up.

 

good chance welker doesn't play, since he was knocked out of their last game with a concussion... or at the very least a blow to the head.