Amph Doctor Who Discussion (Russell T. Davies returns)

The message: genocide is okay as long as the genocide only happens to the bad guys Okay, I'm exaggerating. A little.

I enjoyed it. It's not my favorite episode of all time, but I thought it was good. I also didn't have insanely high expectations because I have repeatedly said I don't think one episode was a good idea. I'm sure there were budgetary and other reasons, but I still really think it should have been a series of specials. It definitely felt rushed at times and the emotional impact didn't land as well as it could have otherwise (although that might also be because I was in a theatre and that makes the energy different).

However, that being said, there were some absolutely wonderful moments and things to love about the episode. The overall direction it's sent us in for the next however many years is, I think, exactly right. Whenever we've discussed what we'd want from the 50th, the thing I kept saying over and over was that I think it's time to find a way to bring the Time Lords and Gallifrey back. Now, you know how much I love angst, and I loved every single bit of angst and personal reflection we got out of the Last of the Time Lords. However, I want to find new sources of angst But seriously, I'm very excited to see where they go with Twelve (we'll still call him that) presumably now heading out to find this pocket universe and the Time Lords. That prospect is great because I want to see how that new paradigm can give us a plethora of new storie.s

I liked the moment of them all three thinking of using The Moment together. But I actually like the end result more. And I don't think it really cheapens Ten's angst about the Time War just because we know he didn't actually kill his own people. For one thing, he still killed all the Daleks (well... most ) and he still would have done it. He really would have I think. And just knowing that he would and could have is enough to have guilt about it. But since now it's just all the Daleks killed, I guess the message is... Four really should have just touched those wires together in GotD and saved himself a lot of trouble

What else... oh man, the hilarious interplay of Ten the ladies' man with Eleven the goofy weirdo was priceless. Kissing Clara's hand and shooting Eleven that look, as if to say, "See? That's how cool is done." Priceless. And obviously we know I would have taken years of Smith and Tennant together on the show, so it was never going to be enough. But what we got was excellent.

I'm totally with Hal that one of the best things was Strax introducing the theatrical showing. Humans take tiny corn creatures and explode then eat them.... [face_laughing] I want this to be the thing that runs before every movie. Then followed by the Matt/Eleven intro where he talks about the 100th anniversary of the show... both funny but also something that, in the back of my mind I was thinking, "I will be 76 then... and I hope to God there is a 100th anniversary ".

Okay and also, the flash of Capaldi made my day. The cheer in the theatre for that was awesome. And I also really really enjoyed the entire concept of them needing

You'll notice how I'm managed to avoid saying the word "fantastic" whilst discussing this, because I'm putting an embargo on that word. I told you guys I was 100% sure Ecclestone wouldn't participate, that I didn't think he was just being coy, and this is an area I'm sad to be proved right about. Because seriously, what Hal said - **** you, Ecclestone. An hour of your time to bring joy to millions of people but you're too busy putting on silly makeup for Thor 2. Important actor indeed.

Now... a couple questions I'm curious to know people reactions on:

* No Rose appearing, just Bad Wolf/The Moment looking like Rose: thumbs up or down?
Personally, I liked it. It was just a bit of heartache to see Ten react about Bad Wolf and to see something that looks like Rose sitting right behind him, and that was just the right amount of focus on it. I liked that we didn't have to deal with the anticipated complaints of, "Stop bringing Rose back already!" I thought it was a nice way to get Billie in there without making it about Rose.

* Tom Baker/the Curator... did it make sense?
I will have to see on a second viewing, because I'm going to be honest with you, I didn't really comprehend the exchange he had with Eleven. Not because it was necessarily confusing, but because from the moment I heard his voice, I sat up straight, wrapped my scarf around me, and just kind of blacked out with joy Also, does he think he could track down a fake Mona Lisa painting while he's at it?

* Will Capaldi refer to himself as the Twelfth Doctor? Will fans?
I don't think anyone's going to dream of changing the numbers for 9-11 since they're well established, but given that now the Doctor knows he's number 12 and went out of the way to think of the War Doctor as the Doctor proper, will he think of himself as Thirteen? I've got to say, I will be kind of disappointed if there's never a Twelfth Doctor because 12 has always been my favorite number and I wanted Capaldi to have it We'll see. What do you guys want?

* Where does this fall in relation to The Name of the Doctor? Was it confusing to skip to where we were?
I have to admit, I was a little shocked that we didn't address the whole, "Doctor jumps into his own time stream and saves Clara" thing at the top. I mean, I guess we're just supposed to assume he walked out of there, somehow he didn't splinted up into pieces in his own timeline, and he's taken Clara back to earth where she's working as a teacher now... I just am not quite sure how he put her back together, how they both walked out, how they got away unscathed. Unless this is actually set *before* The Name of the Doctor, which also doesn't quite make sense. That was the only thing that really bugged me about this episode, not knowing wtf happened after Name of the Doctor...

* Why isn't David Tennant in every moment of everything ever?

 

The main bit I don't get is that if the button wasn't pressed and it was their memories that were erased, what do they think actually happened?

 

They thought the button was pressed?

 

Isn't Eleven the only one who knows that Gallifrey is still alive and he didn't press the button?

 

Oh yeah and how could I forget.... Eleven calling Ten Dick Van Dyke... priceless

 

Also another question does the events of this episode sort of contradict the events of The End of Time?

 

But why would John Hurt think the button was pressed when he didn't press it?

 

If they just forgot about everything they did in the episode and Hurt pressed the button anyway, doesn't that make the whole thing a huge waste of time?

Sort of. Existing in another dimension isn't the same as existing because you aren't in reality.

 

Oh, and I forgot

FEZ!

 

solojones Yeah, I was confused as to how they got from the end of "The Name of the Doctor" to that. And I like that it wasn't "actually" Rose at all. I thought it would be some sort of projection from those moments when she was the "Bad Wolf" entity and could see everything. Tom Baker didn't make sense at all and it was one big fourth wall-breaking thing, but that was fine.

And yes, when Hurt started regenerating (from old age, right?) I thought we'd actually get an Eccleston cameo. Is it just me or did some of Hurt's lines seem like they were written for Nine?

 

Hurt didn't press the button. He regenerated.

 

I wanna explain but i feel its all a bit wibbly wobbly timey wimey to explain it. Because also Ten forgets the events that just happened as well.

 

The other thing that was weird to me is that Bad Wolf seemed to be actively trying to stop War Doctor using The Moment. It seems odd for a sentient superweapon to discourage people from using it, it's function is to be activated.

Why did he regenerate, isn't The Moment itself supposed to cause his regeneration?

 

I am asking why they think the button was pressed, and why they still think it was them that pressed it, when that didn't happen.

It's been stated here that the special changed nothing, so on one hand you have the Doctor thinking he did it, when on the other (and actual) hand, no one did it.

I think the show wanted to create the situation where the Doctor thinks that the War Doctor killed everyone but actually that didn't happen, so those centuries of angst were in vain. But I can't see how that makes sense given that HE DIDN'T PRESS THE BUTTON!

 

I think the Tom Baker cameo dialogue suggested that the Doctor would regenerate into previous incarnations in the future ("old favourites" I think he said). But yeah, obviously just put there for fan service, and it's always nice to see Baker again.

 

I guessing yes that Moffat wanted it to be Nine but was forced into creating the War Doctor instead.

Oh! Only really major disappointing thing... no Ian I am holding onto hope that maybe he'll be in the Christmas Special because he's headmaster at Clara's school. But we'll see.

 

1. It wasn't the "Bad Wolf" entity. It was the Moment using the Doctor's (future) memories to create an image he'd listen to.

2. They explicitly said the Moment had "developed a conscience." That's why it was trying to discourage him.

 

"Oh yes. Course, suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin."

 

The General said the weapon was so advanced it developed a conscience. It didn't want to be used.

That's never quite explained, but Hurt's last words are the same as the First Doctor's, "wearing a bit thin."

So I guess he died of old age. That, or his regeneration after using the Moment was a fixed point in time, and thus even though they changed what happened, he still had to regenerate.

 

Good old Moffat, making you come out of something confused when you should be happy at the great resolution you've just seen.
Only there isn't one really, because that would be too easy and overly complicated.

It was good to see the Time Lord ranking system still has Omega as top level. Insane and bitter though their founder may be, he is still much admired by his people.

 

More disappointing than no 9???

At least he was in Adventure in Time and Space

 

It would have been nice to have all 3 of the Nu-Who guys there alongside Hurt, but the story worked fine without Eccleston being there. At least he sort of appeared several times.

 

Anyone thought seeing the bit of a preview of Silence Will Fall makes you look forward to Christmas in a bittersweet way?

 

Trying to think of other ways to ask my question.

The 3 doctors will forget what happened when they all met up. So what do they think happened at the end of the time war? They can't think that Hurt pressed the button because he didn't. Do they have false memories? If so, where did they come from?