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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit A/V Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003

    If there were to be an equal number of heroes/villains on both sides, AWESOME!

    If the smugglers are the only heroes with the same old Admiral Screed-type imperials on the other side... well, meh.

    Unless the villain was Admiral Screed. Ok, Ok. I'd let that pass. So long as he thought he was doing the morally right thing. But no more racetrack gambling and droid harems. Because knowing the CW team he'd probably end up with Gascon and they'd become some sort of buddy cop duo.
     
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  2. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    Thanks, I was trying to remember which book it was and Jedi Trial had completely slipped my mind, and even browsing on the Wook and searching for Judicial Forces didn't bring it up.
     
  3. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    I feel that Karen Traviss, via Republic Commando, is telling one ongoing story about specific characters. We are seeing how 'her' clones react to different situations, first TCW, then Order 66 then the Empire. Also far more authors than Karen Traviss have approached this from that angle - so basically every author missed the point, not just one - which makes me think that maybe it isn't the authors who missed the point. They simply didn't run with a story telling angle that everyone liked.

    Of course the goal of LFL was to market clones to children so I'm sure that played a part in how this all worked out.

    I ask specifically about telling stories about different Clone Troopers under your scenario. You response is to tell me all the Clone Wars stories that can be written around the clones but not about the individual clones specifically, stories about Jedi, stories about the Senate, scoundrels and Republic soldiers. Pretty much answers my question, there simply wouldn't be potential for clone specific stories.

    Keep in mind in saying this your really not just saying that there shouldn't have been the Karen Traviss version of events. It would also include no room for Jangotat, no room for the events of Dark Lord, no Cut, no Slick, no Rex, no Blood Ties, no Spar - none of that stuff.

    Personally I don't see that as a good trade off.

    Is that really what people would like to see?

    As much as it may pain me to admit this, TCW does give us some of this. Weapons smuggling to Onderon, Hondo Ohnaka basically trying to play both sides to make a profit, Black Sun involvement, that type of thing.

    Not that it was very good, but it was there.
     
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  4. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Can you tell me about the mentioning of the Kilian Rangers?
     
  5. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I think you know my answer!

    :D

    All that stuff can be replaced by other characters getting the spotlight and "the measure of a clone" can still be explored by other characters, most likely Jedi, however. Still, I think that puts the Jedi in a more interesting dilemma than the "clones are totally, completely, unquestionably human with all of their humanity intact and everyone knows it" non-dilemma. As Havac pointed out apparently writers got stuck in a "All Jedi, all clones, all the time" version of the Clone Wars, which meant characters like Republic enlistees mostly got left out.

    Which would you rather have?

    A CLONE WARS setting where the clone army is just a bunch of normal soldier dudes (slaves, but otherwise GI Joes) that take up all the roles, leaving little room for anything else.

    A CLONE WARS setting where clones exist with a tragic loss of self (slaves, with the level of humanity to be explored), they don't get much focus individually but other characters focus on them, with all the scoundrels, Republic enlistees and naval officers or whatever that would take their place...

    What you're describing is basically the Imperial, OT, and early New Republic era, where stormtroopers are mostly treated as mooks. Except, in those eras, not all stormtroopers are clones, so you can still have the likes of Katarn, Jax and Kanos. Those types can still be had in the Clone Wars with Republic regulars.

    I know which one I didn't like, that's the one we got.
     
  6. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    I'd rather have the option for all possibilities, one that includes possibility for clones in situations like the Innocents of Ryloth while also including clones the likes of which served under Vader in Dark Times, executed Order 66 without flinching - all of that.

    Your version eliminates any examination of the Clone Troopers themselves and devalues them as characters to being less than most droids that we meet. It takes potentially interesting characters, with a ton of different story possibilities, and makes them all completely one dimensional.

    As I said I think it would make for an excellent one off Science Fiction story, but has no more legs than that. Really, in the version that we did get, there is room to tell both kinds of stories - 99.9 percent of the clones still followed Order 66 exactly as they were designed to, followed orders exactly how they were programmed to, authors just made a choice to largely tell the more marketable story, the human story.
     
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  7. Contessa

    Contessa Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Yeah eww, no thank you. The last thing a story about an oppressed people needs is to be told from the viewpoint of the oppressor. Marginalized people get that enough as it is already, in fiction and their day to day. I'd much rather have stories where the clones can recognize the inequality for themselves, can speak up for themselves, and can better themselves with the help of social allies rather than some Lincoln-style narrative where the dumb underprivileged stumble around in ignorance until the inevitable white savior sees the light and sets them free.

    Yeah, but there's a big difference between saying that the oppressed shouldn't have stories where they can speak for themselves and need their story told through a savior lens, and saying there should be a larger variety of stories. The latter just makes sense, but the former's pretty gross and problematic.
     
  8. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    This would have been a better metaphor if the Civil War had ended with the slaves shooting Lincoln in the back because they were secretly on Jefferson Davis's payroll the whole time.
     
  9. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    There's an oblique reference to them onboard Altis' ship when Ordo and Bardan visit. The description is totally a Kilian Ranger and, iirc, when she used social media someone asked her and she confirmed it.

    The more direct reference is to the Antarian Rangers, where one is explicitly smuggling Jedi to the safety of Plett's Well (a callback to...man, was it Darksaber that had Master Plett?).
     
  10. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Actually, the clones never get saved, never get set free. More than that, they're beyond saving and are incapable of speaking up for themselves, of saving themselves. They were specifically created to be that way.

    The Jedi aren't (obviously) in the role of savior (because the clones never get saved), they're just sorta there, observing them, using them. They never see the light. Then they get shot in the back.

    It may not be told from anyone's viewpoint, it could be third person objective to highlight the cold, brutal reality of the situation. That's the point, there's no happy ending for these guys (or anyone, it's the dark times). They're not becoming real boys. Ever.

    I have no interest in the clones being "normal", or being treated "normal", or being treated equally. It defeats the entire purpose of having a clone army, especially this clone army.

    What I want is an unapologetic, brutal, tragic, horror story. A cautionary tale, if you will. I don't think I've ever gotten that from the EU. I have gotten it, in small pieces, from the movies.

    I want the clones and everything about them to make me feel absolutely horrendous, I want to feel as bad as possible. I don't want a feel good story about the clones, there's nothing good about their entire situation and there's really nothing comparable in real life for them to champion.

    If I want Commander Data, I'll go watch Star Trek.
     
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  11. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Some clones did get saved. Some were capable of speaking up for themselves and the Kaminoans were used car salesmen making claims that proved false.
     
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  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Your pov vs my pov, that's all.

    The EU is what writers made it, not what it had to be.
     
  13. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    It really isn't though. Canonically speaking some clones did get saved. I don't know why you would claim they didn't.

    You not wanting them to be saved isn't the same it not happening.
     
  14. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    LOL.

    You do realize this entire line of discussion started with Havac talking about doing things entirely differently than it was?
     
  15. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    So you were talking in a hypothetical manner in post 14192?

    That wasn't the impression I got from the post. It really did seem like you were addressing what actually happened as opposed to what you would like to see happen.
     
  16. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Of course? I mean, did you really think I was unaware of the canonical references you were referring to?
     
  17. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2005
  18. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    I went looking and realized that besides the oblique reference there's an epigraph in THE CLONE WARS novel adaption that's attributed to a Kilian Ranger.

    I think KT liked the idea of there being all these difference force sensitive groups that were pretty much unknown because the Jedi had pretty much mastered the Force and thought their way was the right way. Djinn Altis being a maverick teacher, not unlike...was it the Corellian Jedi or the Jedi Wanderers...there was a precedent, were as close to Jedi as could be without being part of the Jedi, but there were other groups that still used the force, and I think that interested her...all those little bits of lore that fell down the back cushions but in some ways were the most interesting.

    Heck, I love the idea of the Kilian Rangers, the Antarian Rangers...sector rangers in general.

    Anyways, had she continued you may well have seen a traveling Kilian Ranger pop up. Kal and Djinn Altis had already set the stage for Kal getting over his distrust of force users, you can see in her notes on what she had planned for IC2 that Kal would end up helping Altis fake his death to stay off the Imperial's radar, and at the end of IC1 Kal is already warring with the fact that he's suddenly helping Jedi as well as clones and that Palpatine played him as well as everyone else.

    It's probably too hard to justify bringing in a character like a Kilian Ranger when you have such a massive cast already to use in most of the EU novels, and then the author has to know about them, and I'm sure there's some reluctance to use other force users who are too close to the Jedi because franchises tend not to want to dilute a brand.
     
  19. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    It may be my not-good-enough english but what do you mean with "oblique reference"?


    I take it that you don't really know about the Kilian Rangers. They were not sector rangers but a knight like Force tradition on the planet Kilian that had had no contact with the rest of the galaxy for around a thousand years until the rebel-era.
    Also I find the quote was rather stupid
    "Enemies are not accidental or unfortunate. We make them, we earn them, and we nurture them, whether we realize it or not. If we can't find real enemies, we'll invent them and make them as big as we can. They become our justification for existing, or excuses for our own failings. Many of us would suffer if we didn't have them - who would need Jedi if there were no dark Force users?"
    after all the ' rangers have their own dark counterpart back on Kilian and the Jedi have not had any great battles against the sith since Kilian lost contact with the galaxy and most other dark force users are small fries. What they jedi have been doing since the Russan reform have mostly been diplomatic missions of different kinds, non-Force using bad guy hunting and bodyguard duties
     
  20. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Sorry, I didn't realize there was a language barrier. Your English is flawless and probably more understandable than mine despite it being my mother tongue.

    What I meant was that there's a description of the a person who fits the image found in the sourcebook the Ranger is from very closely, down to the type of weapon he's carrying. Someone asked her about it and it was confirmed.

    Part of the problem with epigraphs is that they're not dated in the SW novels (something she corrected in the Gears of War books, I believe many of those quote/epigraphs are dated), and an even better example of this is the quotes from a Jal Shay. Wookeepedia lists that Jal Shay as living during the Clone Wars, but I think the intent was that these were writings of a Jal Shay long dead.

    So, iow, the quote from the Kilian Ranger doesn't have to be from the time DURING the Clone Wars, they could be after, and it's MEANT to reflect that person's own experience, which is that their own existence created and sustains their enemies, as well as the Jedi's enemies.

    I don't think it's meant to be taken literal, as those epigraphs were said to have been intended to be musings from force users other than Jedi.

    Or maybe think of it as the old idea of without Batman you don't have the Joker...it's not meant to be literal, but to show the dualistic nature of their relationship, but if there wasn't a Batman to STOP the Joker, then countless people would die, and it's not Batman's fault that the Joker is crazy and fixated on him.

    I don't know if I'm explaining it very well.

    The rather overlong quote from Kina Ha which is the final epigraph for 501st has confused and angered people, mostly because they think she must be talking to someone from Luke's Order, but it was actually meant to be from an encounter in the near future involving literal fake Jedi.I think the idea was that in the aftermath of O66 and the demonization of Jedi you'd have people who'd pretend to be one in order to instill fear or, if the person or persons remembered that they were heroes, to pretend to be Jedi in order to get some reflected glory. You have some of that in the US where people who have never served in the military claim to have fought in our recent and ongoing wars. We call it "Stolen Valor", and it's when people claim a status, usually heroic, that is not their due either for attention, to bring fear to people (someone would be less likely to mess with you if they thought you used to be a Marine or soldier), and so on.

    Sometimes I think the epigraphs confused people and didn't add much to the story, despite the fact that I LOVE the idea of epigraphs. James Luceno and Brian Daley, both of whom have written for Star Wars, used epigraphs every chapter when they wrote the adaption of Robotech...some worked, some didn't. Sometimes they add flavour, sometimes they allow different POV's, and sometimes they're just fun.

    Hope that was clear, and please don't apologize for any misunderstanding, as I said your English is so good I had no idea there was a language barrier and I tend to use a lot of slang and non-standard terms that I'm sure would be extremely confusing.
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Children of the Jedi.
     
  22. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    Thanks, I was totally blanking and while I should have just Googled, I've been posting while on call, so if some posts seem disjointed it was probably started, I got called out to do an x-ray, and then came back and tried to finish my thought.

    And now I feel stupid because the more I remember of the plot of Plett's Well, it's kinda obvious that the book called Children of the Jedi would have been it...d'oh!

    CoTJ had the force sensitive Hutt as well, didn't it?

    I have a half bookshelf of stuff that's my "to read" pile, but part of me almost wants to do a massive reread of of the EU.
     
  23. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Planet of Twilight.
     
  24. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Planet of Twilight.[/quote]


    D'oh!

    Wow...I guess I didn't retain as much of the plots of those books as I thought, maybe a reread is in order. I was planning on rereading the X-Wing books anyways, I guess I might as well do the Bantam era as a whole.
     
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  25. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    A Bantam readthrough is on my agenda as well. X-Wing close to the top of the list.