ST Who's the Hero?

I'd agree with that phrasing.

Hey, I think this thread is proving that we need a Legacy of Vader thread. Mods?

 

But why should I? I like that Anakin didn't love Padmé. It handily explains all the idiot decisions he makes in ROTS. He isn't an idiot, just someone in denial of his true nature. Its the only interpretation I can take serious. Because the one of the maker himself offers doesn't make one bit of sense.

 

The novelizations give you a much greater window into the thoughts of the characters, and Anakin in particular, so that his actions as presented by the creator actually do make a lot more sense.

 

Only the ROTS-novel was any good. The others were forgettable.

And I don't care much for the retcons either. When the films show me an objectification of Padmé and the books love, which should I believe? If Anakin throws a temper tantrum because of power and status but the book tells me he just wants to go to the library, which version should I believe? Which one is the true one?

 

From what I've learn from Anakin and Padme's relationship is... Love makes you do some crazy ****. Well even thats an understatement. Their love was real but it slowly manifested into an unhealthy one. Anakin slowly becomes less and less understanding and becomes the more selfish individual who cares about his own needs. Its like an abusive lover, you don't know what you have until it gone.

 

If he hadn't been in love before he met Padmé in AOTC, I would agree with you. But because his obsession was shown so early, I can't agree.

 

Well we'll just agree to disagree, whatever the case, I prefer it to a lot of romance in movies now days anyways

 

I wasn't touting the other two as great novels, but they are good novelizations if you truly care about understanding the psychology of those characters. When Lucas made the PT, he was heavily constrained by the style he had set for himself in the OT to keep most of those aspects very close to the surface. I believe that the thought was put into it, but a lot of it isn't really seen on screen, or you have to really read between the lines to see it, and then it becomes open to a lot of interpretations. An expectation of obtaining the full picture of that psychological complexity from the films alone just isn't realistic when it comes to these movies. That may sound like a cheat, but it's just an inevitable consequence of working within such stringent stylistic boundaries. And I think it's unfair to say that the books retcon the information that the movies present, when they really only fill it out. The fact that they don't fit neatly with the interpretation you've attributed to the films to explain the characters' motivations is not a fault of the books. There are always slight inconsistencies when it comes to novelizations, but I just read them and I don't see any of the nature that you suggest at all.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with the topic of this thread, so sorry for the derailment.

 

The Clone Wars too also problematizes our easy reading of the Anakin-Padme relationship. On that show, which is now canon, the affection between the two does seem more genuine and "normal" (still possessive though). Padme in general is a much more active character than we see in ROTS. There are a lot of contradictions and ambiguity here that I don't think added interiority (in the novels) or stylization (in the films) can fully resolve. In a way this is good: it forces the audience to deal with the inconsistencies (which parallel the evil actions of good or well-meaning people) and become more active participants in narrative production. But although I think there are multiple valid interpretations of Anakin's psychology, I would warn people against forming a belief that the interpretation you like best is the sole truth. Having said that, having not read the novels, Anakin's love seems like a possessive love (my interpretation). That might make it normal in our culture, but that's different from saying it's healthy. Which begs the question: is an unhealthy love still real love? That depends on what you are willing to accept as "real."

[Thread Derailed]

 

From my experience, unhealthy love can be just as real if not more so than healthy love. For instance, I'm currently in a reasonably healthy relationship. We'll probably end up getting married and having a good life together. Yet, when I think about the last person I was in love with, even now I experience a depth of feeling that I've never had with my current partner. That was an unhealthy love, an obsessive love, and an unrequited one at that. I haven't spoken to her in years, but I don't think that feeling will ever go away. It tore me apart for a long time, but I've learned to put it in its proper place so that I can get on with my life. However, if it hadn't been a necessity it would have been very easy not to. And if my love for her had actually been returned, that relationship would have probably led me to the Dark Side as well. So for this reason I find it easy to empathize with Anakin.

So to try to bring this thing as close to the topic as I can manage... If I'm not mistaken, we've been told that Episode VII will be a love story. So with everything that's happened so far in the saga, I think it could be interesting to see how the ST treats relationships, healthy or not. Chances are Luke will not reinstate the no attachments rule, but it was still there for a reason, and such an attachment could still prove a considerable danger for the new protagonist. In TESB, Luke failed his test when it came to his attachments, and the same thing nearly led him to the Dark Side in ROTJ. If, after this, he chose the solitary life of a monk, he may have never even had a true romantic attachment, and therefore never had the opportunity to learn to balance that romantic attachment with his life as a Jedi in the way that his father couldn't. So part of the story of the ST could involve the final generation succumbing to romance with all of its inherent dangers, but finally finding the balance that neither Anakin nor Luke were able to successfully manage, thus paving the way for a new Jedi code which incorporates that balance.

 

What do you think the motivation was in the council-rant scene in ROTS? Can you claim it was the same in the book and the movies? Because it clearly wasn't. And I consider it a key scene because it tells so much about Anakin's psychology. I also don't think the kid who beats up another kid is the same character as TPM Anakin.

I am also of the opinion that the films should stand on their own feet. It shouldn't be necessary to read supplemental material to understand what is going on in the characters.
The godfather managed to portray the descent of an idealistic man to a remorseless killer in one long movie. So time constraints are really not an excuse. Lucas had all the time in the world to show some realistic psychology, but he rather filled this time with too much senseless battle (example everything with Grievous) and CGI eyecandy.

 

It's like that one song, Love Stinks.

 

I'm reading ROTS now and haven't gotten to that part of the book so I can't really comment on that at the moment. But Anakin beating up Greedo was in the movie but cut out. I don't think it's too out of character because I've seen it and it worked fine.

Time constraints weren't a factor and I never said they were. I was talking about the stylistic constraints that Lucas placed on himself when he made the OT. He had put himself in a position where he was unable to stray too far from that style when he made the PT, which led to a somewhat more shallow reading of character psychology then he would possibly have been able to explore had he begun with Episode I.

 

If you recall, the Godfather didn't really spell out Michael's transformation either. It was shown simply through his actions.

I don't think stylistic constraints hindered Lucas from properly showing Anakin's love to Padmé or his brotherly friendship to Obi-Wan.

We saw Luke's friendship to Han and Leia. Why wasn't the same possible for Anakin?

 

We see Anakin's friendship too, but that's a bit different that a full and direct examination of the psychological complexities involved in turning to the Dark Side. Luke almost turned and we didn't get nearly as much insight into his thoughts as we did with Anakin. But I don't think we're going to agree on this one. Actually it's rare that we agree on anything, but that's ok. You're one of the people who keeps this place interesting. Anyway I think we should probably just drop the subject before we end up killing this thread altogether.

 

But...what about the love?

 

What is love?

 

Baby don't hurt me

 

Still its a better love story than twilight... Yeah I went there

 

Pretty much anything is a better love story than Twilight.

 

I was actually going to see if there was a meme for that.

 

There is several Big Bang Theory memes about that.

 

Hmm, I might have a snoop around too

Yeah, heck even this love story had a better ending than twilight