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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Pyrotek, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    The Mandos do like the Iroquois and kidnap them
     
  2. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    They spring out of holes in the ground!
     
  3. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    I actually find myself interested in reading it (if it was real) just because the summary sounds so over the top
     
  4. Corr

    Corr Jedi Padawan

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    Oct 12, 2012
    I thought 501st was pretty good, although I do think the sequel would have helped it. Still, I loved all of the RC books. I've read them almost all of them about 4 times, although I think I may only be at 2-3 reads for 501st. I usually like to go about a year between rereading books, but I could probably reread all of the RC books (including 501st) every few months and not get tired of them. I can't even pick a favorite, they're just great, easily my favorite SW books and possibly my favorite book series, period.
     
  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    What's with the dude in 501st from Dromund Kaas that hated Force users? Were the Prophets of the Dark Side huge jerks to him?
     
  6. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    At least he wasn't from Naboo.
     
  7. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    A bit simplistic, but not entirely inaccurate. Growing up under the reign of the Prophets, who ruled Dromund Kaas cruelly and made life miserable for its inhabitants, soured Melusar on the Force in general. He viewed it in a manner similar to the way many today view religion in general: oppressive and controlling, and existing to lift up the special few over the unworthy. Combined with the death of his family to the Prophets' regime, he came to view all Force-users as a blight to the galaxy and their religion/powers as oppressive constructs that are best done away with for the good of all.
     
  8. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Roly Melusar, AKA Holy Roly. And, what Mia said.
     
  9. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Lately I've found myself interested in the Inquisitorius and the Prophets, and from what I understand Melusar was hunting down Jedi and hated them because of the Prophets. Do the Inquisitors appear in 501st at all as they do in Coruscant Nights?
     
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  10. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Not really. Unless you count Sa Cuis, Emperor's Hand, as a proto-Inquisitor. He's the only Force-sensitive Imperial I can remember in 501st.

    And why can't soldiers be fathers?

    Baby Mandalorians are more often than not adopted. :p

    Also, as for wives and mothers...well, in the RC series they usually fall in love after serving alongside the Mandos/clones for some time. Of course, if you ask the anti-Traviss users, they'll say "kidnapping," and technically two were kidnapped, but only because one of them was needed to use science to make the clones live longer, and one was to save her life. So it's not like they kidnapped them specifically to become Mando wives...it just turned out that way.
     
  11. Contessa

    Contessa Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 28, 2013
    Dude, stop. Just...stop. Uugh. I don't know if you're trying to be funny, but it's really not funny.

    Yeah, because both roles are completely mutually exclusive. I don't know how anybody would ever manage to be a soldier and have a family. Man, it's a good thing real life is nothing like these books or somebody might actually slip up and think soldiers were people.

    They're discussed in 501st but none actually show up. There's just a brief appearance by the Emperor's Hand Sa Cuis.
     
  12. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    You can ask all your Inquisitorius and the Prophets question on this thread, and pleas do we need a bump;)

    EDIT
    Is it the kidnap or the Iroquois part that made you go "uugh" or both? Just so I know what I did wrong and don't do it again[face_peace]
     
  13. LightsaberAccident

    LightsaberAccident Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 26, 2013
    I've never heard of the Iroquois mentioned in a baby-snatching context. I've heard of the high-profile case of Cynthia Parker, but that was in Texas, and I got the impression that was an exception.
     
  14. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004
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  15. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    For the long version search on "War and culture: the Iroquois experience", hopefully you should be able to find a free PDF version. It is an article that I read in American encounters: natives and newcomers from European contact to Indian removal, 1500-1850.

    Short version is that, to my understanding, the 'Five Nations of the Iroquois' (a confederation made up by the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca) - which was what I meant with the Iroquois - had this tradition that when a member of the nation died in the wrong way, with meant that they lost his spiritual power, they sometime went on 'Mourning Wars': where they raided enemy villages and carried away some of its members. Those that were carried away were either adopted into the Iroquois, mostly the women and children, or ritually tortured to death.
    For more, and better, information look up the longer version[face_peace]
     
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  16. LightsaberAccident

    LightsaberAccident Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 26, 2013
    Interesting, I didn't know that before. Though I'm not sure if it's applicable to the Mandos since they don't increase their numbers through raids and kidnapping as far as I know.
     
  17. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    True. But it would not surprise me if they, or at least part of them, did it in earlier ages
     
  18. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    I'm not saying they are exclusive things. I am saying that the series would have been better had he not been a father, in my opinion.
     
  19. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    I would rather a series that later on actually deserved to have the word "Commando" in the title.
     
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  20. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Talking about saving and protecting is all well and good, but it's still emblematic of the myopic, utterly skewed viewpoint that got us that scene. Etain sees a bunch of terrified kids trying to run for their lives from soldiers attempting to follow their orders to commit essentially genocide, and thinks, "I need to protect these soldiers from these kids' attempt at self-defense, because they're people too!" You can talk about everybody being a person and trying to save everybody, but it's still a deeply skewed, and in many ways disturbing, set of priorities within this situation to decide that the people who need their personhood protected are the soldiers trying to kill kids (because they're emotionlessly killing kids! Such innocence!) and not the confused kids who are being targeted for mass murder by a galactic government because of a bogus story that doesn't even implicate the kids anyway.

    I'd love to see Etain dropped into Nazi Germany, so she can throw herself in front of a Jewish family's attempt at self-defense, screaming, "Those German soldiers are probably just confused kids! You have no right to kill them just to stop them from killing you!" Because, see, if those soldiers are just confused kids, then both sides are innocent! So, uh, we act in a way that only cares about the innocence of one side, because our moral scales are completely broken and we have no ability to empathize with anybody who isn't a clone or a Mandalorian anyway!

    But, hey, this fits in perfectly with the dysfunctional moral calculus of a series that concludes that, because the Jedi attempt universal compassion but somewhere in the balancing process of competing values decided to go along with the clone army they were handed to try to save the Republic with, they are hopelessly morally flawed, and clearly the answer is to join up with the Mandalorians, who extend their compassion to a fiercely circumscribed in-group and behave with utter callousness to everyone outside it! But, hey, you can't say they fail to live up to their code, so MORAL SUPERIORITY.
     
  21. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That's exactly the entire point, though. Etain didn't want anyone, on either side, to die. And she saw a chance to non-lethally bring an end to the situation, to stop the Jedi from killing the clones and stop the clones from killing the Jedi. In essence, she wanted and tried to be Superman, to save everyone. She decided that every life was worth saving, was worth trying to save, even those who were on the wrong side of a situation. Is that not the heart of what a Jedi should be?

    That's not exactly the best analogy for the situation at hand.
    It's more like a group of good, decent people are framed for terrorism by their government, a government that tells the equally good and decent police tasked with apprehending them that they're all armed and extremely dangerous, and even the young ones have no qualms about killing cops. Lethal force is authorized. The falsely accused have weapons of their own, strictly for their protection, but weapons they're willing to use all the same should it comes to it.

    Which side is right? Which side gets to kill the other and be judged as justified? Neither is evil. Both have gotten along just fine, and would again were it not for the lie that turned them against each other under false pretenses. Is the third path wherein neither side dies not the preferable solution? Neither deserved to die on the basis of a lie. That's what Etain tried to accomplish. She tried to keep the mistaken cops and the wrongly accused from tearing each other apart over nothing.

    But that is a moral flaw. A severe moral flaw. On par with the American Founding Fathers preaching freedom and independence from atop a podium built by slave hands. They'd get to the problems of the slaves later, once they were taken care of and the country for them had been established. Or with Lincoln being perfectly willing to abide the practice of slavery if it would avoid civil war between the north and south. If it preserves the unity of the nation, what does it matter if a few more black people had to continue to suffer? Or more than a dozen other instances where the privileged decided what was and wasn't acceptable treatment of others in order to maintain the supposed greater good.

    "They had a war to win. A country's future to secure. How could they deal with all these issues at the same time?"
    "We hear it today, too. That matters of civil rights and equality must wait. There are conflicts to settle. Economies to salvage. What do any of these things matter if the people are not free and equal? All of them."

    You may recognize that quote. You wrote extensively, eloquently I would even say, on what Star Wars as a franchise could learn from Assassin's Creed. And yet, when we're met with these ideas here in Star Wars, we as a fandom seem to chafe at the very thought of it. The Jedi made a choice to accept this injustice. When they "decided to go along with the clone army they were handed," these long purported allies of justice effectively decided that slavery is acceptable if it leads them to victory over their enemies and betters the Republic. Their intentions were noble, their efforts were admirable...but it does not excuse this enormous wrong they stand by.
     
  22. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Soooo...Afghani Al Qaeda instead of Jews, but Havac's analogy stands.
     
  23. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    But no one ever did anything remotely terroristic. On the contrary. The Jedi didn't do anything wrong, but neither did the clones–they were just following orders; they believed the Jedi had betrayed them. The ones on the bridge were shooting at people who not only attacked them first, but also were "known" enemies of the Republic–it isn't the clones' fault that Palpatine lied to them, or that they just did their job and followed orders. Nor is it the Jedi's fault that Palpatine defeated Mace Windu and Palpatine managed to take over the Republic, as it wasn't their fault per se that they freaked and drew their lightsabers. Literally the only person who did anything wrong in this situation was Palpatine, for executing Order 66 in the first place. Etain wanted to save the soldiers who were just doing their jobs and the innocent Padawans at the same time.

    Also, everyone is saying "kids" but I got the feeling that these were 19-22 year old Padawans, not 14-16 year olds like seems to be insinuated here, let alone 9-10 year olds. They were full-grown adults, albeit very young adults, and the clones weren't guilty of massacring them–they were defending themselves. But that doesn't mean the Jedi "kids" were wrong–they just freaked and fell back to the self-defense techniques they knew: their lightsabers.
     
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  24. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    I just don't see how that qualifies you, to over and over again, to comment on the quality of all of her books. There is no mistaken plural, this is at least the third time I've seen you make such a statement about all of her books of late. I fail to see how it is accurate or even fair to offer opinions on books you haven't read.

    Just for comparisons sake, I generally hate TCW, but I took the time to watch the episodes so I could make an informed opinion on them. It turns out there were even a few I enjoyed. Also I don't like Aaron Allston's writing in general, and I've yet to read Mercy Kill for that reason, but I don't run around telling people that they shouldn't read Mercy Kill because I didn't like some of the other novels.

    Go read them. Then hate them. Then I will be able to take your views seriously.
     
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  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Nuremburg blasted a very big hole in that as a defence that remains to this day - and I don't think the 'SW works by different rules' card is going to be that effective here either.
     
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