ST The Legacy of Darth Vader / Skywalker family secret?

Wait though- the god that most people worship on this earth is all-powerful (they believe he is all-powerful), and yet this god allows horrible tragedies where millions die in the misery of famine, disease, and war. Does that make this god a monster? Not in the eyes of worshippers; the Christian explanation is that God's plan is too complex for us to understand, and these tragedies are a part of his plan.

I don't know that it is so much an issue of who is to blame. I think it is more just why it all happened the way it did, and what it means for the future heroes/villains of the story..

 

The Force is nature, and nature takes care of itself. Fear people. People suck.

The will of the Force was to create balance. Anakin made it destructive.

 

The dark side possessed Anakin. The detractors here are viewing possession in terms of movie tropes and, of all things, Green Lantern. Think outside of what you know....Maybe "possessed" is the wrong word, but clearly the glowy red dark side eyes mean something unusual is up, and this isn't really Anakin. By the way, IIRC, on film, no one ever said Anakin/Vader "redeemed himself"...they just said, "There's still good in you." That can be interpreted in many ways.

Lee_: I like what you are saying. But SW is not the real world. In the real world, there is no Force. In the real world, explosions in outer space don't make sound. Flipping that, in the SW world, a "Force" that creates ghosts and gives evil people with glowy red eyes could certainly "possess" people or have different moral standards than our reality. Obviously similar, yes - but still different.

The point is: Anakin is already a ghost, so the Force clearly "forgave" him for any sins, thus he has no need to atone for any sins, and thus, don't be surprised if the ST doesn't focus on that.

As I wrote in my first post: that comment always gets ignored or brushed off, and what do you know? It's getting brushed off again.

 

Yes, SW is not the real world, but there are a LOT of very intentional parallels to the real world in this story; that is one of the reasons it resonates so well with people. There are plenty of parallels as far as people having reduced responsibility because of certain conditions, but yet still holding a degree of responsibility.

The fact that he has a degree of responsibility for his actions doesn't mean he isn't redeemed or forgiven at the end of ROTJ; I don't know who you were referring to, but I wasn't disagreeing with you or brushing you off on that point.

 

Perhaps they simply disagree with you. Does that help?

 

Lee_: thanks, I was not referring to you.

darklordoftech: fair enough, but on this point, I have found some people have a stubborn aversion to entertaining alternative ideas, designed to lead to thoughtful discussion, rather than half-flame gut reactions. Admittedly, I have an issue with aggressive singularly-minded people.

Again, the primary point: Anakin is already a Force ghost. By the films, it appears he has nothing left to redeem. If one speculates the ST will be about Anakin trying to break out of limbo to move on (as I have seen some suggest), one may be setting oneself up for disappointment.

That's it. Simple point.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't think the Force would will such things. The Will of the Force must be obeyed for your own good. If the Jedi refuse to obey the Will of the Force and insist on imposing their own will, they will suffer the consequences of their actions. Best represented by a faithful Qui-Gon and the apostasy of Mace.

The Sith put themselves before all. We know the consequences of their actions.

I reason this construction in order to make sense of the character of Anakin, which riddles me to no good end.

 

Lord TW I'm not disagreeing that Anakin was redeemed in ROTJ... I believe that he was. But I just want to point out that there's nothing in the movies that indicates that Anakin became a ghost because the Force "forgave" him. That ability is specifically mentioned as something learned and taught, while nobody ever says anything about it being something the Force rewards people with.

 

Not in the movies, but there is something remotely similar in the ROTS novel. Qui-Gon and Yoda's conversation talks of needing to be someone who loves (I don't recall the exact wording) to become a force ghost. I wouldn't frame it as the force "forgiving" him, but I think it shows he is existing within the "light side" force, and is experiencing love. IF that idea came from Lucas anyway; hard to tell how much of the novelizations are Lucas's ideas outside of the stuff that is directly from the movie.

 

From the ROTS screenplay:

222 INT. POLIS MASSA-OBSERVATION DOME-NIGHT
On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.

YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ...

QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.

BAIL ORGANA: Excuse me, Master Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.

 

One of the rewarding things about ambiguity in narrative is that readers are able to interpret things for themselves. It's true that the prophecy relates to the characters in the ST much differently than it does the audience. We are the ones who see all the information and we try to make sense of it the best we can. These interpretations we form are strongest when we relate them as much as possible to the text itself. The film. As we say in literary studies, "Only the text itself." That doesn't mean you can't compare a text with other texts, but that these comparisons need to be based on textual evidence.

I see no evidence in the films for possession.

And if people want to argue that the Force is a monster like the OT deity, then I'll try as hard as possible to find counter evidence. If we are to care about this GFFA at all, the Force must not be similar to an angry, amoral God. The Mystery defense (humans can't understand the big picture) is only another way of ignoring human suffering and privileging the cruel authority of masters. The human POV matters, and the minute Star Wars is positing some inhuman moral authority, the good times are gone.

 

This is what I was looking for.

 

There are a lot of ways to look at things.The best English teacher I had in college really pushed us to look for deeper, more complicated meanings in what we read, to avoid writing interpretation papers that put our interpretation into some trite little "moral lesson," as that was not only not good reading comp, it is not how life is in general. Things aren't always simple enough to put into a little box and labeled good or bad in some tidy way. After all, labeling everyone "to blame" and "immoral" and basing your interpretation on that is a lot like the dogmatic, simplistic people that believe in the Mystery defense. Not saying YOU are like them, just talking about your ideas about the force here.

Maybe the force is neutral, and that is what balance is. Who knows? We may never find out; Lucas may never tell us what any of it really means. He might sit back, laugh, and enjoy watching people debate it on internet forums for the rest of his life.

EDIT: Sorry, accidental double post.

 

I believe the whole Anakin/Vader story is the most beautiful story of the whole saga.... Now take all of these things into consideration, because you'll see that Vader did everything that the prophecy said he would do and more.... Now what the prophecy stated is that he would destroy the sith and bring balance to the force, now that being said look at the Old Republic.... There is nothing but Jedi everywhere, all of them generals leading troops into battles, hundreds of apprentices, and probably just as many younglings, etc.... Now how many sith are there at the time of Anakin's decision to go to the dark side - just 1 - The emperor, so in essence to bring balance to the force the jedi had to die in order to bring balance, because for too long the jedi ran everything and had all the power and the sith were but a footnote, but when Vader killed all the jedi except 2 - Important just 2 remained = Obi Wan and Yoda.... Then there were 2 Jedi and 2 Sith.... Balance to the force.... Then his later actions then lead him to fulfill his true destiny which was to destroy the sith and the sith legacy since the rule of 2 was 1 master and 1 apprentice going back for a long time... When Vader killed the Emperor he destroyed the lineage of the Dark Lords and destroyed the sith.... Now of course we can go into debates about well what about the Lost Tribe, but if the force is all knowing and everything I'm pretty sure the force knows that the lost tribe of the sith isn't getting off that planet anytime soon so you really don't have to worry about that.... But notice that when the New Jedi Order gets to have hundreds of Jedi running around then boom the lost tribe shows up to bring balance.... Honestly I think I'm going to write an expanded universe book about this very topic, that the force is like the Aing-Tii Monks perceive it to be like a rainbow, not just light and dark.... Also I enjoyed playing a little of Jedi Academy the other day because I love what Master Katarn says that there is no dark ability but only dark emotions and actions, so in other words that you should totally be able to force lightning somebody even though you are a lightside person and likewise heal someone if you are on the dark side etc, but overally I find that the force issue is a very eastern theological way of life when you perceive it to be ONLY light and dark side, but when you view the force as the Aing-Tii Monks it raises so many more questions but provides some valuable insight, and maybe force willing bring liberation to the followers of the light and dark side to live in peace by coming to the new understanding of the force....

 

I don't think the force is inherently benevolent, after all it itself does have a dark and destructive side too. Because what is the dark side, if not a part of the force? Why does it exist when the force is "inherently good"?

The Jedi are insanely trusting of the force. They tell their pupils to trust their feelings (meaning force feelings). But doing this is what partially caused Anakin's fall. He felt the temptation by the dark side and followed this feeling.

Many in the audience seem to parrot the Jedi's view. Why? Because they are the good guys and the good guys are usually right in a movie. It's convention.

But because of what I mentioned in the first two paragraphs, I believe it is possible that the force could be shown in a different, less positive light in the ST. Maybe the Jedi relearn to use their brains too instead of completely depending on the force.

 

Honestly when looking at the Jedi Code and the Sith Code, I always pick Sith Code because it's more badass, but I think the truest definition of the force should be a combination of both.... I think the thing that jedi lack the most is passion, without passion life is meaningless, which I think was definitely fixed with Luke's leadership as Grandmaster of the New Jedi Order, and also I love the phrases in the sith code "through victory my chains are broken, the force shall free me." Such vivid imagery is placed there, however when looking at the jedi code it looks so robotic and mundane, "there is no emotion, there is peace, there is no ignorance, there is knowledge, there is no passion"... and by the way how arrogant do you have to be to say there is no emotion, there is not ignorance... Doesn't make any sense especially when documenting all of the jedi we see in the movies, there was plenty of emotion in every case, and the jedi were ignorant of Darth Sidious the whole freaking time and didn't even find out until Sidious basically told Anakin and then Anakin told the jedi.... If Sidious would have never told Anakin the jedi would have never known.... Pretty ridiculous....

 

Fair point...thanks.

Just because the word "possession" doesn't appear in the script doesn't mean that the impact of turning to the dark side isn't the same. I don't need everything spelled out literally for me. This is interpretation aT its core meaning.

Possession doesn't necessarily mean Anakin is completely absolved of responsibility. But what I have seen in the films (he becomes a ghost), and what someone says is authentic because it is in the script (ghost="eternal" consciousness), tells me Anakin has no redeeming left to do. Possession is one potential explanation, as is my other theory that he saved enough lives to make up for the deaths he caused as Vader. I'm sure Dra--- will hate reading that, but that might be the way things work in the GFFA.

 

Here's my therory -- pure speculation:

Because Anakin is the Chosen one, his act of redemption love, by saving Luke and destroying the Emperor may only be part of the full picture. My guess is that the ST will show that the restored balance opened some gate or unlocked some door that the Sith had sealed up, an act that could only have been performed by the Chosen One. (As a side note, for all we know, Anakin may not have been the first Chosen One the Force sent to bring balance, just the first to accomplish the task that needed to be done).

...So right now we see Anakin / Vader with blood on his hands, I'm guessing we will learn that his sacrifice meant more than just saving his son and killing his Master.

 

I wouldn't mind possession in Star Wars. I just don't think we'll see it with Anakin.

A possessed Anakin would be a way to bring back Vader sans Anakin. I think Darth_Pevra mentioned a while ago that Vader, the spirit of evil that he was, might return somehow independent of Anakin. I wouldn't hate this plot, surprisingly. But I do think it would remove much if not all of Anakin's culpability for the crimes of Vader if it were to happen.

Culpability is important to me in narrative for the same reason not bringing people back from the dead is important to many here. Actions should have consequences (not that they always do). Narrative is nothing if it's not about positing a moral space. Now, I'm not saying people have to posit my moral space. I'm just saying I'd rather have Star Wars posit a just world rather than a monstrous one. Our own reality probably is monstrous, like Lovecraft's world. It's nice to occasionally have a world better than this to live in for a time.

But yes, the PT did make the GFFA and Force more complex. Gray. One of the problems is that we can't help but talk about the "will" of the Force. This suggests some sort of moral position. What is it? Do the Jedi follow it? Do dark and light create some sort of progressive "becoming-moral"? Or are "dark" and "light" terms produced by the Jedi that don't exist for the Force. You know, is the GFFA teleological or is it absurd? Is their an intended direction or end to its existence? These things interest me. I don't expect them to interest everyone.

 

Also, do the light and dark sides each have their own will?

 

IMO, no. The Force as a whole has a will, and it also has a dark side. Those who use the dark side ignore the will of the Force, while the Jedi at least strive to listen to the will of the Force.

 

Honestly if yall haven't watched the Clone Wars episodes when Anakin, Ahsoka, and Obi-Wan go to Mortis I highly recommend them because they show what a big deal the being the chosen one was and how to fulfill the prophecy etc... Also you see the Ones The Father, the son, and the daughter...The Father is neutral, the son is dark, and the daughter is light You see during this exchange how it's all very eastern with the ying-yang, light and dark, and the Anakin has the ability to control all of it, pretty awesome... Definitely check it out its Season 3 of Clone Wars Episodes 15, 16, and 17...

 

Here, I agree. Returns from the dead, and lack of culpability, make for a lesser story. And I would hate to see SW become Twin Peaks.

To be clear, however, I wasn't suggesting some spirit named Darth Vader was floating around waiting to possess people; more so, that the dark side possessed him, and I suppose that means the dark side has a will of its own. I' m sure that opens a whole can of worms that I haven't actually evaluated.

 

There is a theory that the Force actually is "good," and that there is no literal "dark side" to it, rather that a Sith's corruption of the Force is what is called the dark side. A dark way of using the Force.

The followers of the Potentium held this view.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potentium

"They [the followers of the Potentium] claimed that what others called the light side of the Force was actually just the Force itself, which was inherently good. This was backed up by the fact that Ashla, the ancient name of the Force, came later to describe the light side. What others therefore called the dark side was a perversion of the Force, twisted by those who used it. Believers of Potentium said that the potential for light and dark sides resided in the user, not the Force itself..."

"It should be noted that some followers of the Potentium still attempted to avoid the dark side. They, however, saw the dark side as something within themselves to be avoided, not something in the Force. They reasoned that if the Force was the energy that flows through all life, the dark side simply came from the corruption of humanity. They felt that if they could be perfectly moral, they could be immune to the dark side and therefore use any technique they wanted. This view is somewhat similar to the Unifying Force theory of the Force."

About a century prior to the Invasion of Naboo, Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council kicked 'em to the curb, though.

Just food for thought.

 

IMO the potentium theory is nice, but it doesn't fit well with the representation of the movies. It doesn't explain the dark side cave in dagobah or Anakin's very drastic and quick personality change as soon as he pledged himself to Sidious. It also contradicts much of the exposition dialogue the Jedi's give of the force. You could now claim the Jedi don't know everything, and that is true, but exposition is usually reliable, especially if something is repeated over and over (be aware of the dark side, etc.). The theory is more what EU writers thought the force should be rather than a real explanation of the force.