ST Who's The Baddie?

Darth_Pevra
Tell me about the Nightsisters. I like the idea of a female villain, but I know nothing about them.

 

I don't know much about the Nightsisters, but I like the idea of a female villain, and have said many times I would love Charlize Theron, who can be the beauty or the beast like no other IMO.

I like the idea too of her and Leia going at it in an epic lightsaber/force lightning duel, kind of like the showdown between Sigourney Weaver and the alien mother in Aliens (the second Alien movie). It may be blasphemous to suggest this around here, but maybe Leia is hesitant about using her force powers (and previous Jedi training in the years in between), and now wants to be a mother; but when Luke is defeated (or incapacitated) by the villain, Leia changes her tune and challenges the villain. The only difference is, unlike Sigouney Weaver did in Aliens, Leia can't call the female villain a bitch (SW is family friendly ).

 

Lucas likes to draw from history. My best scenario is that after the battle of Endor, the Empire did not fall. You saw celebrating on Endor and in the streets of key locations, but we do not know what happened 2 hours later. In the event of Hitlers death, Operation Valkyrie was to be put in place to secure Berlin and the Government. So who is to say Order 93 wasn't put in place? Rebel sympathizers celebrating too soon only to be exposed and exterminated.

Some 20 to the 30 years after the Battle of Endor, the Empire might be more dangerous than ever. Where once the Empire only visited Bespin and Tatooine if there was something they were after, now they completely occupy these places. It was nice of the Mon Calamari to donate those ships, but what happened to their home world afterwards...

The Rebels could be further underground and the situation more dire. It wasn't enough to just kill Hitler (a part of the plan which failed miraculously anyways), but they needed to assume control from the heart.




This also provides a great timeline split for the EU. If Operation 93 never happens, you get what is the EU today after Endor. If it does happen, then you get the next 3 movies.

 

I'm not sure I want them fighting a bigger and badder Empire still 20+ years later.

 

How about a female force user who hears voices in her head like Joan of Arc. I'm not talking an Emperor's Hand like Mara Jade, but someone born at or right after Palpatine's death whose force ghost visits her and teaches her that all force users are inherently evil and must be destroyed. After all, he was a force user and look what happened to him.

 

The EU has a similar take- at least, when it comes to the Coruscant celebrations:

X-Wing: Iron Fist, page 33-34

"People like Zsinj, they have to be squashed as hard and as fast as you can. Because the next thing they do is going to be something awful. They never do anything that isn't awful, and ordinary people get killed." Castin's tone was bitter, and other Wraiths perked up to listen.
"You're speaking from personal experience."
"Oh, yes." Castin looked around blankly, staring not at his fellow Wraiths but at some point in the past. "The day the Emperor died - what were you doing?"
Face didn't have to think back. Most people recalled exactly what they were doing the moment they heard that Palpatine had been killed at Endor. "I was in civilian flight school on Lorrd. In class studying astronautics. Why?"
"I was in one of Coruscant's plazas. A little one, couldn't have held more than a couple of hundred thousand people, way up high where only a half-dozen buildings cast shadows on it. The word spread like fire through an old building. The New Republic HoloNet broadcast was being rebroadcast on a wide band so that every personal comlink would pick it up. All holoprojectors were showing the second Death Star exploding.
"The crowd went crazy. Loyalists were turning white. Some of them were fainting dead away. Rebels and people with Rebel leanings were going berserk. Before very long, they were actually tearing a statue of Palpatine down. A big one. It took cables and skimmers to knock it over. Castin shrugged. "And then the stormtroopers came."
"To restore order."
"If you want to call it that. They opened up on the crowd pulling down the statue. And their blasters weren't set on stun. You could smell the burning-meat odor all over the plaza. I was right next to a young mother who took it right in the head. I grabbed her baby on the way down so that it wouldn't be trampled in the stampede." He shook his head, his expression bleak, and fell silent.
Face said, "The Imperial HoloNet wouldn't have transmitted the news of the Emperor's death like that. Not before they'd had time to sweeten up the story and turn it into some kind of Imperial victory."
Castin shook his head, not meeting Face's eye.
"So someone else, someone technically proficient, had to have intercepted it and rebroadcast it like that. You?"
"My group was one of them, yes."
"So Zsinj is another Imperial killer, and if you don't stop him personally, it's the plaza all over again. Is that it?"
"Maybe."
"Well, that's as good a reason as any." But that was an answer for Face. Castin might have volunteered for this duty without a blemish on his record, but there was still a possibility of volatility there. Now he had to wonder if Dia or Shalla were also carrying around emotional demolition charges just waiting to go off.

 

Iron_lord That quote shows why I think that the Empire would still be around for the ST. Yeah the victory celebration scene in ROTJ is awesome but now it is not the end anymore so good bye happy ending.

 

Note that this story was written very late in the EU- some time after the Empire had been portrayed as either "dead and gone" (Corellia trilogy), or reduced to remnants hiding in the galactic Core (Young Jedi Knights). It's more to add an extra layer of grimness to the RoTJ celebrations, than to subvert the RoTJ picture entirely.

While the ST might make use of an Imperial Remnant, it might cheapen the OT a bit to portray the Rebels as having been soundly defeated and on the run again, only shortly after RoTJ.

I figure that a Remnant, while maybe controlling a medium-sized portion of the galaxy, won't be the dominant galactic power.

 

I don't think the end of ROTJ was supposed to necessarily mean the end of the Empire. Other SW movies end on festive occasions (ANH, TPM), and certainly aren't the end of the Empire.

Another evil force user could certainly move into the power vacuum left by Vader/Sidious; I don't think it is at all inconceivable that Lucas would do something like this.

I am curious how much JJ could/would change the story, e.g. how the villain comes about. He is re-writing/editing/changing/finishing (or whatever) the script, and has a rep for making changes to movies. I know a SW film is a little different than his usual projects, but I don't see him coming on board without having some control of the situation. So maybe in a sense we are speculating about the wrong thing (or maybe our speculation is too narrow), maybe it should in part be what JJ likes in villains. Who knows?

 

This Eleven-thirtyeight article:

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2013/11/a-case-for-starting-over-part-iii-heirs-to-the-empire/

makes what I think is a pretty good case for including some sort of Empire in the ST.

 

The official SW site has already given a timeline for when the Empire was finally defeated. Looking at the 'official' chronology of it, the ST will take place after the end of the Empire and its warlords.

 

Link? Starwars.com is a bit tricky to find stuff on at times.

 

Think about them as a matriarchal witch-society which keeps the men in villages and only uses them as canon fodder or for purpose of mating. Their leader is "mother talzin", who has many strange and unusual abilities. They are pretty territorial.

Thank you, that was one of mine, sorta, as the theme itself was already invented in the EU. I thought since the force connects all the beings, it should be possible to draw energy through these connections. Maybe not only from intelligent beings, but also from plants and animals.
Such a Sith would be not only the enemy of Jedi, but even of other Sith as they have nothing to gain from the death of life.

 

That's pretty literal and concrete thinking. Or do you believe a Star Destroyer actually destroys stars? For instance, the character names Lucas provides are always telling. Take Plagueis, for example. His name is a mash of two words: Plague + is. Yes, is. As in 'be' or 'to exist'. Plague, as in curse or a divine punishment. I think it worthy to note that a plague is a bacterial disease that infects. Perhaps Plagueis infects midi-chlorians. So I think the verdict is out on Darth Plagueis.

Am I to understand that you believe every story told to you is true?

No, it's not ironic yet, but if Plagueis shows up in the ST, it will be very ironic indeed!

I agree with this statement and I think we will see new and original characters. Plagueis is already Lucas' new and original. We just haven't seen him, yet. We'll see if he indeed used him in his ST treatments.

True, but following Lucas' narrative method, he seems to go up the food chain: Vader/Palpatine or Maul/Tyrannus/Vader/Palpatine. Palpatine is the ceiling, but if we get Plagueis, we get Palpatine's Master, who would indeed pose a greater threat in that he is largely unknown to the characters and the audience. Remember, "There's always a bigger fish (Sith)".

Palpatine might have as easily said the Sith learned 'unnatural abilities' to 'create life' or what have you.

What would be 'new & original'? I'm betting SW doesn't change its mythology. There will be Sith and a Sith Lord. Plagueis is the same as Sidious with a different name, species and powers. That might be differentiation enough.

The same themes exist in the OT as the PT. It is one saga. Let's keep it that way, please. Even though the OT was the middle Episodes, they began the story. The PT enlarged and expanded that story and the ST should blow that **** up like a balloon - another good reason for Plagueis, too. He enlarges the story within and without.

Why? When I say principles I mean characters.

A great plot development. No part of the story is over until it has been concluded. The ST will be the conclusion.

Well Lucas is a great storyteller.

Oh, sorry. I believe given the choice between a Palpatine return or a Plagueis reveal, I think Plagueis more inspired. Part of this has to do with the descriptions of the character's traits in the story. Or, my understanding of them. That's all.

I agree with this, too. However, at this point of the story, being two-thirds complete, I think it wise that one or the other be the connective thread within the story or they really run the risk of making the ST an epilogue which may feel unconnected and unnecessary.

I'm doing the 'either/or' thing here again. Palpatine may be literally dead, but he may return in some interesting ways.
Thanks for responding.

To everyone else. I thought we were here to have conversations about the 'Baddie', not ridicule each other for our thoughts. If it seems like too much Plagueis that's not a problem. This is a forum after all. Don't read it or participate then. There's plenty of other threads. I don't like a lot of ideas being discussed here, but I don't complain to people about them. I read it, 'like' it, respond to it or pass it by. We're all free to do the same. I'm not here to be creative. I'm not a creative person. I'm interested in what Lucas has created and I'm looking for circumstantial evidence to back up any potential ST villain claims within the existing story. And I'm having fun doing that with all of you. But please, let's not try to control or limit the conversation because you don't like it . Why try to limit or ban certain ideas? I agree it's important to be respectful and civil. Perhaps I fail at this at times, but I've learned from others to use my emoticons to let others know how to take this or that. So, here I go posting this response and thinking others believe me unbearable because I'm talking about Plagueis. Well, I don't apologize.

Darth_Pevra: I believe the English word for the critter you described in the Dagobah cave is centipede or millipede.

 

Immortiss: It's not "rigid" to discuss something. What's rigid is to tell people not to discuss something. None of the people here who voted for Plagueis ever tell people not to discuss something. That whole suggestion is a form of ad hominem, attacking posters here instead of the subject matter.

If you want to discuss a villain(s) in this thread, no one is stopping anyone (except anti-Plagueis people). But why do people feel it's the duty of others to discuss their ideas if they're not interested in them? Interesting sense of entitlement. Some serious hypocrisy going on here.

Anyway, so now that we're taking a break from Plagueis, the focus has become the Empire? How fresh and creative.

Oh, and vampires. Not many movies and shows about them. Extremely fresh.

And I think the other "new idea" was a new darksider. How vague and unoriginal.

These are the fresh and detailed story ideas people want to talk about?

 

In comparison to the Sith, absolutely.

 

Oh I swear everytime I come to this thread its either Plagueis debate or something about the sith (or neo-sith as I've been hearing lately). I wonder what will happen to this thread if Plagueis *or any other overly- fan predicted choice* actually IS the villain. I imagine the reaction being a glorious mixture of "Ugh really...they couldn't create a new idea so they just did the most obvious choice? Lame" and "OMG MY FAN THEORY WAS RIGHT! CANON THIS! EU THAT!". It would be glorious to watch.

Anywho.....here's hoping that whoever the villain is they dont be lazy with their design. I grow bored of villains wearing all black leather with the overly styled black hair and the "Woe is me" backstory that somehow makes tons of tumblr fangirls swoon because apparantly the villain rule is "You're evil unless you're sexy then you're just misunderstood".

 

The Sith vampire idea reminds me a lot of Darth Nihilus, the Lord of Hunger in KOTOR. A Sith Lord whose seeming sole purpose was to consume the essence of life to feed his insatiable hunger. A literal humanoid Eldritch Abomination, capable of consuming Force-energies from entire worlds. A force of nature as much as a Sith. The idea could be intriguing if they put a novel spin on it, but I don't want a ripoff of one of the most iconic villains in SW videogames.

Speaking of Eldritch Abominations (and videogames), for other villainous ideas:

darklordoftech often mentions the "Whonts". Being a big Mass Effect fan, I wouldn't mind if these Whonts---ancient beings that the ancient Sith species worshiped, perhaps---were actually giant sentient starships created during a time when the galaxy was young and the Celestials ruled. They could be like the Rakata and utilize the dark side of the Force extensively in their technology and to power themselves indefinitely. A mysterious, unfathomably ancient evil whose power in the dark side was what originally enabled an entire species to be strong in the dark side, and which, thousands of years later, would spawn vast Sith Empires. These Whonts could be hiding out in the deep, dark voids of the Unknown Regions or even just outside the galaxy itself. They could possess dark side auras so powerful that those who can feel or use the Force would be inevitably drawn to them, and only through faith and force of will can a Force-user resist their lure. Those who succumb fall to the dark side, or likely are already dark siders themselves, believing they retain their free will but in reality completely being bent to the Whont's indomitable will. In fact, the new Sith or dark sider villain could be a servant of the Whonts, who are largely in the background (or even disguised as Sith warships) throughout most of the trilogy.

Also, if the Whonts are actually giant, ancient starships, then space battles would be front and center of the ST. The final battle could be a reflection of RotJ, where we might have a climactic lightsaber duel but the actual space battle involving the New Republic fleet and the Whonts would ultimately decide the fate of the galaxy. Sort of like the space battle* in the first Mass Effect. Or the even larger scale battle in Mass Effect 3.

Long before the Sith...there were Whonts...

*It would be pretty epic to see a Whont smash into a Republic cruiser, obliterating it, and then proceed onward without any visible signs of damage like Sovereign in this clip.

Edit: Go ahead, "dismiss" my claim!

 

The Empire is more fresh than the Sith? That's only an assertion. Do you have an actual reason or do you only believe this based on faith?

Plagueis fans at least have plenty of good reasons why they believe what they do.

 

The Empire was only in three movies (besides a cameo in ROTS), the last of which was released in 1983. The Sith were in six movies, the last of which was released in 2005.

 

4 movies. Most recently released in 2005.

 

I edited the post right before you quoted it.

 

http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/20...ds-despoilers-of-an-empire-part-1/#more-26107

 

Not only four movies. The Rebels TV show will have the Empire as a main antagonist.

And why do you leave out the tons of EU novels with the Imperial Remnant out?

If the Empire is your idea of fresh, then you might as well dig a four month old body out of a grave.