Saga Anakin should not have been redeemed

Seems a bit contradictory:

"he redeems himself" "Vader is redeemed by his children" "He is not redeemed" "Anakin can't be redeemed".

May be using "redeemed" in different senses though.

 

Guys this is once again a matter of perception. Not everyone knows everything that GL has ever said and he's pretty changable anyway. He obviously had his own intentions for his story but it doesn't mean everyone knows, understands, or shares them. That's okay. Just because fans all over the world have different interpretations of his work it doesn't change his intent but since all this about perception of a fictional piece it's going to remain a set of perceptions. Fighting about it is pointless.

 

Redeem has more than one meaning. There is redemption in the more common, traditional sense that most people associate with the end result of years of taking action and finally gaining forgiveness. But the lesser known version is actually one that Lucas uses. Which is to become something that is favorable to another. Luke keeps saying that there is good within Vader and that he believes that he can save him. Vader finally realizes this is true and saving Luke, he winds up becoming a good man again. He becomes that which only Luke could see.

 

Avoiding redemption requires abandoning the reality of sin, which in turn requires abandoning absolute truth. Atheists find it so attractive because in their minds, it frees them of an ultimate responsibility to anyone but themselves.

If you want my full reply on this, PM me with a more detailed question.

 

Good call. If anyone wants to engage in an actual religious debate (as opposed to presenting religious analogies relevant to the SW Saga) please do so in The Senate Floor forum.

 

Good Humor Vader. (Couldn't resist.)

 

The greater the misdeeds the more profoundly moving the reconciliation.

 

@ Ananta Chetan: I heartily agree with you, Sir.

 

Agreed. It would just feel cliche if he wasn't redeemed. IMO, Vader's redemption makes Star Wars unique and much better. If he wasn't redeemed, he would have been killed, just like almost every other series. It makes it much more satisfying for me.

 

So . . . during the small space of time between his death and his appearance on Endor, Anakin was taught to become a Force Ghost by Obi-Wan and Yoda? Oh my God.

 

Yes. It takes longer to do this from the corporeal world, compared already being in the Netherrealm of the Force. Anakin had already achieved part of the methods necessary when he became a good man again and saved Luke. Obi-wan and Yoda just took it one step further by helping him to make the transition. See, back during the writing of TESB, it was going to be revealed that Obi-wan wasn't really dead, but rather, he was stuck in the Netherrealm of the Force. He wasn't dead, but he wasn't quite alive. Kinda like the Phantom Zone. Other Jedi had managed to do the same thing and were hidden there. Anakin, who was still a separate character from Vader, was also there. Later during the writing of ROTJ, it was written that Obi-wan could return from the Netherrealm of the Force and be alive again, but Luke had to let go of his anger towards Obi-wan for lying to him about Vader. Later, Yoda warns Vader that he will be lost if he falls in battle without turning back. This is then fulfilled when Vader saves Luke from Palpatine and they both fall into the lava in the Sith Tombs. Obi-wan tells Luke that if he turns completely back, Yoda can save him and he does. During the final celebration, Anakin and Yoda are seen alive once again, with the former now completely healed and whole again.

Lucas had opted to drop a lot of that because he wanted Luke to stand on his own, but he also felt that maybe Vader shouldn't be restored to normal. It wasn't until Howard Kazanjian suggested having Anakin appear as a ghost alongside Yoda and Obi-wan, that Lucas changed his mind again and went with it. But then, as before, it was due to Yoda and Obi-wan.

 

Edit: Double Post.

 

Correct

 

I think believing that Vader was redeemed depends on your perspective (and I'll skip the requisite Obi-Wan/Palpatine quotes... ).

If you take Luke's POV, then Vader was redeemed. Redemption in Luke's eyes was showing that there was good in Vader and reconfirming Luke's faith in his father. Vader's last gesture is giving his life for his son. He wasn't doing it to gain power. He was simply doing it because he cared for his son. From Luke's POV, I think it would clearly seem like a redemption that an evil guy like Vader would throw away all he had been working for for the last 23 years, turn on his master, and as his last act, save Luke knowing that it would kill him. (BTW this is the reason why Vader wanting to co-rule with Luke was dropped in ROTJ. GL wanted it clear that when Vader tossed Palp into the chasm that Vader wasn't doing it to take power, but just to save his son. I think this was a really good call.)

I think if you look at it from a Judeo-Christian POV, then Vader's action is also in keeping with redemption. With the Christian idea of complete free will, it is possible for someone to reject his evil ways and embrace goodness. Being born again and going to confession fits with this idea. If you genuinely embrace Jesus as your savior of if you genuinely reject your past sins, then according to this idea, you have purged yourself and you can start anew.

If you take a more modern deterministic psychological POV, then I think the idea of Vader or anyone being fully "redeemed" doesn't really make much sense. For instance, the idea that a deeply bigoted anger-fueled Hitler could change on a dime and become a saint just isn't possible from a modern understanding of psychology (or a concaine addict choosing to stop with a snap of the finger or a pedophile suddenly deciding "Nope, I'm not going to be attracted to children anymore"). Basic concepts of modern psychology would make this impossible. Free will seems limited at best, learned behaviors and responses most slowly be unlearned, people rationalize and live in denial, a person's personality places limits on who he is (that's sort of the whole notion of what a personality is -- a fixed set of behaviorial attritubes that stay with you through life.) So, the idea that Vader could do a complete 180 turn away from being an "evil" guy in an instant just doesn't jive with modern understanding of human psychology.

Now I don't think that this would prevent Vader from choosing to save Luke and turning on the Emperor. Even very warped people sometimes have great affection for their children/wives and Vader did hate Palpatine, so I think it is possible that Vader might have saved Luke even at the risk to his life. However, the idea that if Vader had lived after that, he would have been some swell guy, totally good, totally Saint-like doesn't seem to make sense. Those types of changes are rare (look at how little responsibility those at Nuremberg took), and they take years and great deal of effort. Rehabilitation of criminals goes along with these lines. It's a time-consuming process, and though I support the rehabilation model, I have to admit that the results are mixed.

I think from this modern psychological POV it's still fair to say that Vader's choice would still fit Luke's definition of redemption. However, it's probably good that Vader died when he did. Just because he saved his son doesn't mean that he would have renounced his political beliefs, all his past acts, or his ultimate goals. So, Vader was sort of lucky to die when he did. It allowed him to die at a high point, after a moment of self-sacrifice, and before he had a chance to do more wrong or try to justify some of his past behavior as being right.

I'll also add that a legal perspective would not consider Vader redeemed. Had Vader lived, he would've been put on trial, and his last moment turn on the Emperor would be characterized as small footnote on what would be considered an almost wholly evil life. No one outside of Luke would have considered Vader redeemed. He would've been characterized as a war criminal and jailed for life. (For some reason, I'm assuming the Republic doesn't support the death penalty, though I have no idea why I think that!)

When GL talks of redemption, he is dealing with some very complicated concepts that are understood differently from the perspective of religion, the law, human psychology, and moral philosophy. It makes sense that he can't communicate the nuance of these ideas in a DVD commentary or magazine interview. Plus, he'd probably end up boring most people to death (as I probably have!). Still, I think if you take these different perspectives and apply them to GL's quotes, then I think they make a lot more sense.

 

Personally, I do believe all that stuff about "living in denial, lying to yourself for justification", etc and having a set, unchangeable personality, but we have to remember that, whether as Anakin or Vader, he is the Chosen One. It's not his "personality and traits" that matter so much as those of the Force. In a sense, the Force controls everything in the galaxy - everyone is a slave to it, bound to its will.

Yes, what I just said make barely a shred of sense

 

Are you stating that as a fact, Vader would have never renounced his past acts and beliefs? Or are you saying this as a possibility from "a modern psychological POV"?

 

Anakin would have renounced his acts but wouldn't jump full board onto the Rebellion. If he took over the Empire he would have toned down the harshness of the Empire from the acts of the Emperor but would still like to have some sem-balance of control. No slavery or killing etc. Just my thoughts anyway.

 

If Vader had killed Palpatine, it wouldn't have changed what the Empire was. The only difference would be the absence of a Death Star and even that's a debatable one. By turning away from the dark side, Anakin was essentially letting go of all the darkness and ambition that once drove him to being evil. He would once again side with the Republic and he would have tried to become a Jedi again, if he had lived.

 

Dear God! Really?

 

Yes.

 

What, you thought he learned it on his own?

"We cut to Yoda, who is meditating, who hears this (the Tusken slaughter) off-screen, and we do hear a voice in there, and that voice is the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. So we very subtly establish that in this rather intense emotional connection, where Yoda is feeling the pain and suffering of Anakin and the Tusken Raiders, he's also making a connection, unwittingly, with Qui-Gon Jinn. Up to this point (in the saga), we haven't established that you can make a connection with the departed in this world, and that will become a factor in Episode III. Lots of issues sort of come out of that - but this is the very beginning of it. Yoda making a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the middle of Anakin's pain."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"There’s a hint of how Obi-wan eventually in ANH has learned to give up his physical being and becomes one with the force and you understand here that his old master Qui-Gon has something to do with it - come back from the netherworld of the Force and teach him how to do it."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Ergo, it has to be a learned process.

 

Obi-Wan being 'taught' how to do it by Qui-Gon's force spirit during his years spent in exile on Tatooine,

VS.

Anakin being 'taught' how to do it in 30 minutes , AFTER HE DIES.....yeah, right.

 

Being the Chosen One sort of allows for infinite poetic license.

 

More like Obi-wan and Yoda were having to do it from being alive to being dead, versus Anakin who was already dead. Same with Qui-gon.

 

We've known this for decades. Why is it now a problem? Oh wait, it now has ties with the "unholy" PT. Carry on then, wouldn't want to interfere with mindless indignation.

 

Back then, people believed that it wasn't a training issue - it was a Jedi issue - that all Jedi fade away and become ghosts after death.

Does raise the question of why Obi-Wan's acting like it's something very special when facing Vader:

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."