Lit Jedi diet -- How you get so big eating food of this kind?

Bajiquan and Northern Praying Mantis. And I do the San Cai Jian form in sort of a Xingyiquan style (I think most people do the Tai Chi version). A couple of the guys I train with do some style of Bagua, I'll probably add in some of that at some point. We're sort of a bunch of mongrels, our instructor also has a very heavy Muay Thai background and I've got a Taekwondo background originally, so some other stuff finds its way in there too. The Thai and TKD kicks actually blend really naturally into Northern Praying Mantis.

Yeah, you're right in the wuxia aspect, but my instructor always comments that it's especially prevalent in the US because the first people to embrace Chinese martial arts in the 70s were so interested in the philosophy and mysticism. In Hong Kong in the 70s there was at least a ton of gang violence going on to keep everyone honest. Martial law Taiwan at the time was also a mess.

I'd actually be really interested in seeing the choreographers for the new Star Wars trilogy try out some inspirations from more esoteric Chinese sword arts rather than generic wushu. Seeing a lightsaber used more like a jian than a katana would be sorta cool.

 

Of course the EU overlooked Buddhist/Taoist tradition of vegetarianism, along with Taoist/Buddhist influence on Jedi, period. It's not just that these writers aren't vegetarian, it's that they're also not particularly familiar with Taoism/Buddhism/anything eastern or even monastic in general, and don't really care to learn. It follows that they'd leave out vegetarianism, because they left out everything else. There are exceptions of course, like Stover.

 

I've been saying for a very long time now that I'd love to see someone versed in Perennial Philosophy take a crack at a Jedi story. The Jedi already seem like a kind of syncretic religion, a mish-mash of various Earth-religions, or perhaps more to the point... an attempt at whittling Earthly religions down to their common core truth. The Jedi Order is basically an organization devoted solely to the Perennial Philosophy.

I really commend Stover on not only being familiar with Tao, but straight up quoting directly from Tao Teh Ching in his Star Wars work.

The lightsaber is a very versatile sword. I'd love to see a Jedi who uses it like a jian, and others like a dao.

 

Where does Stover quote the Tao te Ching?

Edit: And isn't Traitor the book you are looking for re: perennial philosophy?

 

I don't think Traitor qualifies. And as I recall, it's been a while since I read it, it was either in the ROTS novelization or Shadows of Mindor in which Stover quotes Tao Teh Ching.

 

I thought this attitude of perspectivism that might be espoused in Traitor might be similar to what you are looking for.

 

Not really. The NJO kind of got there a bit when it recognized the Yuuzhan Vong religion as having been a debased knowledge of the Force. I'm not sure I'd say Traitor really qualifies, though, for what I'm really getting at. Vergere is pushing for a certain point of view there, and simultaneously saying the Jedi are wrong about what they say of the Force. They aren't, and neither is she really. But there's not a two-way recognition of that fact. I wouldn't say the Jedi philosophy denies what Vergere was even saying... that the thing a Jedi needs to be on guard against is their own based, selfish, desires. That's kind of inherent in the whole warning about acting out of anger, fear and aggression. As natural as those emotions can be, they are often the easiest gateways to acting selfishly and exercising power for one's own benefit rather than the good of all. There's a saying from the 8th Shiite Imam that says, "anger is the key to all wickedness." That's a crucial reality in the moral universe of Star Wars, and the presence of an actual dark side of the Force is a metaphysical fact. The dark side is not merely the "raw unrestrained" power of the Force, as Vergere asserts. It does, however, take certain negative traits to open one up to the influence of the dark side of the Force. It doesn't just take you against your will, you invoke it, much like a person in the Abrahamic tradition might be said to invoke the Wrath of God and that can dominate your destiny if you don't turn back from it. Repentance, especially in Semitic languages, means to "return to God" or "turn away" from whatever evil deeds on has done.

I don't really feel like Traitor fully gets it. That was an attempt at doing away with dualism in Star Wars, without having itself acknowledged that Star Wars was never really a dualistic tale in that the light and dark sides of the Force were counter powers(though in The Star Wars early drafts it very much came off like this). Manichean Star Wars ain't. Traitor was almost addressing the misunderstandings of the EU up to that point just about the base metaphysics of the Force inherent in the OT. And it was no doubt an odd place to go in the EU, perhaps Tom Veitch's work best illustrates this... neither Luke nor Ulic really had much of a choice in the matter... they were sort of whammied by the dark side and didn't particularly choose to follow the dark path. That kind of storytelling kind of imposes the light vs dark counter powers Manichean metaphysic versus the yin-yang metaphysic that is GL's actual intent, as shown now in Mortis, which was also attested to in the old RPG books like, ironically, the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

 

I don't think Traitor was about metaphysics at all though. It was about epistemology.

In other words, Traitor is saying nothing new about the Force from a metaphysics perspective.

 

Vergere was certainly saying something new about the metaphysics of the Force, i.e. "there is no dark side of the Force" and "what the Jedi call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained power of the Force." That's pretty new, and while I think the ethical lessons one can take from Vergere are easily reconcilable with traditional Jedi teaching... her metaphysical teachings are not. What is strong in her argument is the idea of purifying your heart, and thereby being assured you won't lean towards the dark side. Eliminate the darkness within and you won't even be tempted to touch the darkness without. I believe that's what the Jedi always taught.

*As a forum, we really need a sort of catch all thread for discussions about the Force and Jedi philosophy IMHO.

 

I will have to respond in further depth later, but I think you're taking her too literally.

Is it was the teacher teaches, or what the student learns?

 

Perhaps. That all depends upon what was the intended meaning on Stover's part and the initial editorial intent for the conclusion of the NJO. We know where it went from there, though.

 

Also, remember: Vergere only tell lies

 

But how much real nerf is there in 'Nerf Paste'?

EDIT: Opss

 

I think Vergere's statement that there is no dark side needs to be taken in proper context -- and with Jacen's explanation in mind with regard to what Vergere means when she says that everything she tells him is a lie: "See, the thing is, everything everyone tells you is a lie. The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it." The lesson that the novel hammers into our heads with the prologue, with Vergere's speech about there being no dark side, with Jacen's conversation with Anakin's "ghost," with Ganner's battle at the Well of the World Brain, Jacen's moment with the World Brain, and in the epilogue, is that of interdependent origination. The Force binds all things -- all is one. "You need not like someone to love him. Love is nothing more than the recognition that two are one. That all is one."

He shares how much he loves it all: for all these things are all one thing: pain and joy, loss and reunion, life and death. To love any is to love all, for none can exist without every other.
The Universe.
The Force.
All is one.
The Yuuzhan Vong and the species of the New Republic.
Jacen and the World Brain.

So why does Vergere say there's no dark side? Because the Force is one. But the Yuuzhan Vong and the species of the New Republic are one, and they still exist. Jacen and the World Brain are one, and they exist. Vergere's argument for "there is no the dark side" is that the Force is one. That doesn't mean the dark side doesn't exist. It means she's trying to get Jacen to realize that the Force is one. And he does, as seen above.

Vergere doesn't assert that's what the dark side is. She says that's "what [Jacen] calls the dark side."

http://theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/mattstover.asp

And:

Frankly, I'm as burned out on all this as Ulicus is.

 

Though I'm okay with the deification of the Force as long as we're talking panentheism.

 

In what sense would you define that as deification? As a thinking, conscious entity? Or as Spinoza's God?

 

I'm pretty comfortable with either, though -- in the context of SW -- would lean towards the latter.

 

I think Stover's understanding of God is woefully folksy and not really in touch with the esoteric side of religions. The deification of the Force is fully consistent with esotericism. God isn't a physical being, so how can God be something external to one's self? There's a saying called a "hadith qudsi" which is essentially a revelation from God to Muhammad that isn't part of the Qur'an that says "the world cannot contain Me, but the heart of my servants contains Me." God is the Reality that permeates everything.

The Force is essentially that.

 

I don't think Stover is accusing the fans or the EU of "deifying" the Force in an esoteric sense, but in a mainstream "God is a white man with a beard in the sky" sense.

Edit: And I can't speak for Stover, but personally I tend to see it in the sense that there's some writers that write the Sith Lords as though they're championing the cause of the dark side, like the dark side is the dark prince that they worship and they're doing its bidding. Sith Lords don't champion any cause but their own, and they use the dark side (the selfish side) in doing so. Likewise with the Jedi -- they aren't championing the light side. They're guardians of peace and justice. The Force is -- the Jedi don't seek motivation or ethical guidance from the Force. Neither do the Sith.

 

Weren't we talking about food?

 

We still are. Food for thought.

 

Vegetarianism would've been an interesting way to go with Jedi, even though I'm not quite sold on that being the definite intent from the movies. I know we're pretty far out from that now, but I think it would be cool to at least see some Jedi who feel that vegetarianism is the right path for them as an extention of the Jedi respect for life. I think I'd also like to see Jedi who *do* eat meat, but have a respectful circle-of-life worldview, where life feeds life and in death will feed life anew, and with a Jedi taking a moment to honor the given life of whatever they were eating.

 

As we're in danger of deviating somewhat from the specific focus of this thread, I'm going to bump Dawud's old metaphysics thread to continue the "food for thought" stuff.

About time it made a return, anyway.

 

Well, two right of four is just half bad

 

That movie.