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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit A/V Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. karilyan

    karilyan Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2014

    As one of the debaters in that thread, I remember the argument wasn't about what was canon in more sources (although people still kept posting them as evidence in an endless "Ive got more sources than you" contest) but how it was inconceivable that such a small number of clones was able to wage a war described as epic and galaxy spanning as the Clone Wars against quadrillions of battle droids able to replace themselves faster than I can say this sentence.

    But any whooo lets not start that here...
     
  2. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    [​IMG]

    No, no, we must rehash 2005 all over again! Bans for everyone! :p

    (For what it's worth, I consider the number of actual clones to be independent from that line of dialog, since there are other lines of evidence that the army was much larger.)
     
  3. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Me neither. But I suspect for very different reasons than you. :p

    As always, it's a case of fiction writers having problems understanding scale or internal logic is not unheard of. Just sad to see SW being another example.

    The same movie has a clone telling Mace Windu "Sir, I have five special commando units awaiting your orders, sir." and there's more than five clones following him.
     
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  4. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 21, 2002
    I guess we'll never know.
     
  5. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2012
    To be fair, even before AOTC that was a problem. Even as a kid reading the Thrawn Trilogy, when I got to DFR I thought it was strange that a fleet of a couple dozen fifty-year old derelicts would be enough to turn the tide of a galactic war.

    Although I suppose, even that issue involved clones...
     
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  6. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Oh. I guess it's the same reason, after all. I WILL CONQUER THE WHOLE GALAXY WITH A MILLION OF TROOPS is just so Doctor Evil...


    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Maybe you don't need quite as many clones if you make extensive use of tactical wide-area EMP?
     
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  8. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Sigh.

    [​IMG]

    Back on topic guys. Muuns. Muun noses. Order 66. Sifo-Dyas. Lost Episodes.
     
  9. Grand Admiral Paxis

    Grand Admiral Paxis Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    My personal retcon has always been that while Tipoca City only had an initial production run of 1 million clones, countless other Kaminoan cities such as Timira were working to fulfil similar sized orders. This allows the directly stated, movie canon "1 million units" to remain in place whilst also adhering to all the other evidence that the army was much larger.
     
  10. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I'll go back to the prior off-topic discussion of the prequels by saying that after giving it serious thought in various inappropriate places, I feel like Episode I was fine in the context of the wider saga. I think its "badness" is overstated and the film is more or less an inferior version of the original Star Wars insofar as that it's an even more direct adaptation of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress.

    The problem is that in Attack of the Clones, the Anakin aspect of the story is poorly executed with regard to the romance and it simply doesn't work without that being believable, and Episode III focused on Anakin to the exclusion of anything significant, e.g. the Obi-Wan/Grievous sequence is boring and irrelevant as is Yoda on Kashyyyk and are token inclusions. Luke's story in the OT is always present but it never really dominates the film and when it does take up focus it drives the overall plot, but Anakin's story dominates the latter two prequel films and in a way that either doesn't serve the plot or results in the other storylines distracting from Anakin's plot. Anakin has no real personal stake fighting Dooku, his romance with Padme distracts from the plot of Episode II rather than feeds into it whereas Luke's training as a Jedi is directly relevant to Vader hunting the Millennium Falcon, and while sending Obi-Wan and Yoda away from the action on Coruscant is relevant to Anakin's turn, what they actually do there is a distraction from the plot which has absolutely nothing to do with the Clone Wars.

    I guess the tl;dr version is that in the OT and Episode I, the hero's journey part of the plot has synergy with everything else going on, but in Episode II and Episode III, there's no synergy between the hero's journey and the Clone Wars. And Episode I had no Clone Wars, but it did have the Naboo Crisis, and Anakin fit into that like a puzzle piece rather than a distraction.
     
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  11. JediKnight75

    JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2011

    I like that explanatido; still it would leave them with a small amount of troops because o don't think there were that many cities on Kamino. I do wish they went with the idea that a unit was a couple squads. That made a lot of sense. Or an author could could have introduced the Spaarti cloning cylinders earlier in the war. The idea that a million clones could form the backbone of a galactic army is ridiculous.
     
  12. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    no it sucks
     
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  13. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    :(

    I pretty much rate it similar to Return of the Jedi, except slightly inferior because it doesn't have the whole throne room sequence, or rather its non-union Mexican equivalent. Maybe the fact that Lucas was lifting directly from The Hidden Fortress made it not really bad. I mean, who is the pro tuh gone ist to that film (The Hidden Fortress)?

    Edit: In all seriousness though, I think the RLM review of TPM is kinda garbage with its nitpicking and dishonesty. Sure some of the criticism is on the spot but you have to sift through the nitpicking and serial killer jokes to find it. I can't comment on his reviews of AOTC or ROTS because I stopped watching the AOTC one when he fundamentally misunderstood the plot of Episode II and thought that the senate was voting on creating a clone army at the start of the film.

    That's not to defend the prequels or anything, I just don't really care for those reviews.
     
  14. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2010
    I've always enjoyed the PT, despite some of its most obvious flaws. The universe they expand is jarring compared to the OT, but now I wouldn't have it any other way. This is why I enjoy PT era EU and, yes, even TCW so much.

    The directing and dialogue of the PT are their main flaws as far as I'm concerned, but I enjoy the concepts behind them immensely.
     
  15. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I think I'm hardcoded to prefer the Star Wars I remember before the prequels ever existed with the classic music, including the album music which was not in the films but was frequently used in the video games. I'm not sure why, but Episode I falls into that paradigm and the other two don't. My prior post is my best guess, but I'm sure there's other factors like Episode I sharing the 35mm film of the OT, the fact that Episode I wasn't reusing Episode I's music, and its absence of Jedi overbearing on the plot. I mean you have Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan but 50+% of the film doesn't take place on Coruscant or in the Jedi temple and Yoda and Mace Windu appear for like 5 minutes total.

    I guess that carries over at least partly to TCW, at least with the emphasis on the Jedi.
     
  16. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    I like TPM, I just don't think it's a very good movie. It reminds me of one of those cheesy Star Wars knockoffs that are kind of cool and a little boring and don't really feel like Star Wars but are all right for what they are. As the backstory to the OT though it's pretty lame.
     
  17. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I never said it was good! I don't think a film has to be one or the other. They can be thoroughly mediocre. My favorite films tend to be films that aren't considered "great," or even necessarily "good." Maybe I have bad taste. But I think the Internet is too polarizing with opinions and stuff is taken to be either the "BEST EVAR" or "WORST. EPISODE. EVER." I can do without that.

    The Phantom Menace is what it is: an inferior remake of the original Star Wars which adheres even more closely to the plot of The Hidden Fortess than Star Wars did. But I think those elements lifted from THF make it at least entertaining (for me) to watch. I like Qui-Gon as a character, and TBH I think it works better for him as a venerable Jedi Knight than it would have for Obi-Wan to have a majority of that characterization. I think the fatherly aspects of Qui-Gon would have been lost if it was Obi-Wan, and if they weren't, I don't know that it would have worked that well since Obi-Wan and Anakin were brothers, friends, and equals, so it would have been just as damaging to Obi-Wan's narrative of the prequel saga in the OT as what we got. Anyway, I have my little view of the saga being bookended by Qui-Gon and Luke as the two Jedi Knights that are the platonic form of the Jedi Knight manifest, or something.

    Still, I wouldn't mind transporting to an alternate universe in which the earlier draft in which Obi-Wan was the star of Episode I was the filmed script. It looks interesting!

    And I feel like there's a sense of continuity between the OT and Episode I that is lost with subsequent films, which is probably a consequence of many things, including the age which I saw it at (thirteen), the 35mm film versus digital, the fact that the film is fresh and new and not completely rehashed in settings and music like the latter two prequels, the absence of the Jedi dominating the plot, etc.
     
  18. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    After re-watching the Prequels again recently, I kinda share a lot of the thoughts being tossed around here. TPM is a lackluster film in a lot of ways, but it's still a fun movie for me to watch through most of it. I still love the podrace sequence even though, unlikely though it may seem, I saw Ben-Hur first, and the overall visual direction of the film is excellent even by today's standards. The biggest flaws are the lackluster plot, horrid dialogue and stone-faced performances from 90% of the cast.

    AotC is the biggest "meh" movie of the three for me simply because of the albatross that is the Anakin/Padme romantic plot tumor right in the middle of what might otherwise have been serviceable story. The effects are still good, though the fact that the film is shot digitally makes them seem more artificial than they do in TPM, and while most of the performances are still decidedly deadpan, some of the actors use that to their advantage and manage to snark up the otherwise turgid dialogue.

    RotS is the most artificial-looking and, IMO, dated of the three, but also has the best performances and, aside from the rushed last five to ten minutes post the climactic duel, has the best plot and writing. Nothing on par with anything that could be considered a good movie, mind you, but it's still better than either of the others.

    One thing I did notice as I was watching them, though, was how unique to themselves all three felt. All of them were still somehow Star Wars. And watching a Star Wars movie is a unique experience, there really is no other movie series like it. Even the Abrams Trek films, which unabashedly ape Star Wars at times, still don't have the same feel.

    That's my biggest problem with reviews that say "TPM doesn't feel like a Star Wars film". Yes, it does. Bad movie or not, it has a unique style and focus all its own that somehow still says "Star Wars" to me. Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the presence of familiar characters and planets, maybe it's just the nostalgia. But it's something all six films have in common, a uniqueness among franchises that has been often imitated but never duplicated. It's the one thing I think TCW managed to do really, really well: capturing that same, unique feel Star Wars has, warts and all.

    And I never finished the Plinkett review of TPM nor did I bother with any of the others. Nitpicking and complaints are all well and good for someone claiming to be a critic, but if your massive review in an irritating, droning voice isn't in the least bit entertaining or funny, don't expect me to waste my time watching it. I don't need someone else to tell me how flawed the Prequels are, I can see them for myself thank you.
     
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  19. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    My problem with the Plinkett review is that he tries so hard to criticize the film for every possible thing that he nitpicks the lowest hanging fruit and is otherwise dishonest with strawman attacks on the film, and consequently the scrutiny which he applies to Episode I would equally tear down the original Star Wars films.
    [​IMG]

    "Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth."

    Luke doesn't lead the Rebel Alliance! Seriously, why does he waste my time by quibbling with the Episode I crawl calling Obi-Wan a Jedi Knight, and then waste my time by making a review nearly as long as the movie due to all the nitpicks while at the same time talking about how Episode I wastes his time and films shouldn't waste his time? How about I film a bunch of my friends being asked to describe Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars and have them pretend like they're completely unable to do so? That would prove that the character is a poor one.

    Ultimately, it strikes me as one of my pet peeves, when someone has a foregone conclusion and then cherry picks the evidence to support that conclusion. That doesn't mean Episode I is a great or even good film, but it's bad for a film review, because IMO whenever there's a foregone conclusion, it's done in bad faith, and whatever good points that a review raises get lost in the noise of the nitpicks and dishonesty. And I don't have the time to sift through the noise to find them.
     
  20. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    The irony of making a review almost as long as the move he's complaining about having wasted his time is so thick it would take a lightsaber to cut through.
     
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  21. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    But not really though. The OT isn't perfect either but those movies are so well made that you don't notice or don't care about the little flaws or imperfections. The point is that when movies are fundamentally flawed, from the ground up, there's nothing to disguise the little problems that don't really matter and they start sticking out like a sore thumb. He just points them out as he goes through his analysis, he never says they're the reason why the movie is bad.

    It's not a film review, it's a video essay. He's arguing in support of a point, not trying to reach a conclusion through unbiased analysis.
     
  22. newdawn12

    newdawn12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2013
  23. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    _Catherine_ except I don't think that TPM is "fundamentally flawed" anymore than The Hidden Fortress is fundamentally flawed. Once you strip away the nitpicks and dishonest straw man critiques, suddenly there aren't so many genuine problems, and the problems that remain aren't proof of the film being "fundamentally flawed," like the protagonist one which you could equally apply to THF. The whole "essay" is argument by verbosity with Stoklasa packing as many nitpicks and bad faith arguments as possible alongside the legitimate problems of the film into an "essay" nearly as long as the film itself and it is garbage for honestly diagnosing the problems of the film.

    I'm not going to say TPM is anything more than an inferior film. But the review just tells people what they want to hear by reinforcing their opinion and making them feel like they're justified by having it, as though it is objectively proven by the review. But it is total confirmation bias to say that his proof by verbosity isn't a logical fallacy this time because it is a foregone conclusion that TPM is fundamentally flawed but the OT films are good so their flaws are totally okay and if you nitpicked them you're just being petty because their inherent goodness overcomes them.

    A logical fallacy arguing a true conclusion is still a logical fallacy.
     
  24. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
  25. melkor834

    melkor834 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2009
    So they just retconned Korriban to no longer be the Sith home world... If they touch upon the origin of the Sith, this could have major ramifications on the Star Wars EU.