ST Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Some time in the late 80's right before he died. It was a small part of a longer interview with a mag (so not on camera just text)... Due to it being in the 80s its obscure on the net so ill need some time to hunt it down again but to paraphrase he said star trek ships where exploration ships and in a smallersociety where star wars ships are meant for war in a much larger society with more ability to mass produce war ships. In short he admits that the title of the two series matter if the two societies ever duked it out, an exploration adventure story would be conquered by the industrial war story.

Don't forget though most trekies ignore this kinda thinking and just argue that Q can do anything (though now its been showen in TCW the Whills can pretty much create or destroy life at will too by simply touching it)... Or argue time travel (though being too dumb to realize their ships are too slow to get to a GFFA and whipe them out in the past).

Also remember Gene hated Wrath of Khan even more than Lucas hated Empire, Gene's vision of Star Trek is only really represented by the first two season of the original series and first 2 of TNG... He produced only a fraction of all the Star Trek material unlike George Lucas who even now still has vast influence even after he sold the rights. in other words Gene's vision of Trek isnt what most fansview it as even more so than OT fans disagreeing with the PT.

 

I pray to god there is no Jar Jar Binks!

 

For male characters its generally referred to as Gary Sue, and.......kinda but not really. I think he had 1-2 elements of a Gary Sue but not a tone of them

Wesley was a smart, capable kid, but he wasn't someone who became a full Star Fleet Officer at 15 years old, if I remember right he even flunked 1-2 tests to get into the acadmy early. He did save the day his fair share of times, but so did everyone else on the show, its not like every episode came down to Wesley figuring it out. There also wasn't much seperating him from everyone else, its not like he some fantastic piece of equipment or personal ability/skill that set him a part and above everyone else.

A great example of a Gary Sue is Corran Horn.

 

Please, Wesley Crusher is as big of a Sue as Corran Horn if not bigger... He was flat out fan insertion of the target market (in higher level canon) and he was far too 'star trek perfect' and his failures where endearing... He 'flunked' by flunk we mean second place because Star Fleet is like highlander 'there can only be one candidate' that gets through... And he failed cause he choose to selflessly help the other students in third and fouth place. He was so smart extra dimensional beings where more interested in him than all of Star Fleet... He is the definition of a Mary Sue/Marty Sue/Gary Stu.

 

He wasn't the focus of every show, didn't solve every problem, wasn't an expert in every field, he didn't have ANY redeeming physical attributes, wasn't the lady's man of the cast, etc.... He was certainly an annoying character and had Gary-Sue-ish moments (having a teenager figure stuff out the best the Federation had to offer) but he wasn't full on Gary-Sue.

Corran on the other hand was THE main character of all 3 of the X-Wing books that featured him, he covered pretty much every base on the team - best pilot, best commando, was the one in the centeral love story, only one with an interested and fleshed out past/backstory (if I remember correctly, that played in the X-Wing series). He had the best R2 unit etc... He was a Jedi, but not only a Jedi but the only Jedi with 1) A Silver Light Saber 2) A lightsaber that could change length. They took away 1 power but gave a special power to replace it that no one else has, that he can use to to access the power he doesn't have. There is no downside or negative or draw back or flaw to the character. Wesley wasn't THAT.

 

For Wesley Crusher, I think you are looking for "The Jar Jar Binks of Star Trek."

 

Many episode Wesley was the POV character, he saved the day in almost all of those episode and many he wasn't in. He dated a werewolf princess for an episode to mention one of many he dated. He was an attractive nerd and had a unique back story of serving under the man who killed his dad while his mom fell in love with him... He was accepted by the child hating captain to the point he might as well have adopted him. He saved the universe itself dozens of times and endangered it just as many... He built his own tractor beams, force field, nano tech, warp engines, etc...

He is a Mary Sue beyond any doubt... That said Mary Sues can be enjoyable to watch. Being a Mary Sue in of itself isnt always a crime but with Wesley it was and the actor who plays him admits it (he now hates Star Trek as much as Jake Lloyd hates Star Wars, the difference is he's funny about it, you can see his rants on youtube

Him and Tasha Yar

 

No he wasn't. Hell he left before the series was half over. There were issue with the character and I said it was silly that a 15-16 year old would/could save the day while the best the Federation had to offer was stumped, but he wasn't a Gary Sue.

And Picard eventually liking him is Gary-Sue-ish, its character development. Having him have love interests is different then being "the romantic lead" of a show etc... Every male character had love stories, even the robot who didn't have emotions.

Either you never watched the show or don't reall yknow what a Mary/Gary Sue is.

 

Either you never watched the show or don't really know what a Mary/Gary Sue is.

• One doesn't have to be a main character of a series to be a Sue, you are wrong on that point. All one has to be is a self-insertion and being too perfect just seals the deal (again, Wesley is the physical manifestation of the target market and as even you admit just too knowledgable... case closed).
• One doesn't have to be in every season to be a Sue, your counter argument is a strawman and invalid. Sue's often die young since they're just too perfect.
• One doesn't have to be attractive to be one, though having a unique physical trait is often a factor of being one (in Wesley's case its being the attractive nerd, in Corran's case its looking just like his author with facial hair)
  • Wesley did get some girls dispite your previous denial... but its Star Trek so at the end of the day science is even more important (most Star Trek romances are so horrible even fans don't want them long term save for a few pairings)
• Wesley is far too powerful (by science knowledge) and had way too much effect on the universe... even more than Corran did (best he did was liberate a single planets a few times)

 

yeah, you don't need to be present in every episode to be a M(G)ary Sue

 

Corran wasn't a Gary Sue. He wasn't the best pilot in the x-wing series and struggled to lean any amount of telekinesis. He didn't start out as an expert duelist and used his cleverness to invent a dual phase blade to win in a fight. Stackpole also had Corran flick his blade on and off to pass though a parry. I found both of these strategies to be interesting uses of cleverness to defeat otherwise superior foes.

Some characters were just great at everything like the kyle katarns, kyp durrons etc, but Corran, tionne and cighal all has weakness.

 

Kyp wasn't perfect at everything, at least not in NJO. He has the diplomatic skills of a wampa and the sleazy charm of a snail. He was also arrogant, thinking himself superior to Luke Skywalker when it comes to force powers.

He was also one of the few characters who actually made any goddamn sense in this force forsaken series and was interesting enough that I wanted to know more about him, but that's not his fault.

 

He is the defination of a Gary-Sue. He absolutely was the best pilot in the series (the first part of the first book is all about him trying to prove it to everyone). And the fact that he struggles to learn it doesn't change the fact that even the "flaw" that was susposed to make up for the ultra rare power he has, is meaningless. So Corran is an expert duelist, but also so clever that he can beat any opponent even when they are better and more skilled then him...........

I get that Corran is popular, but his popularity comes from being a Gary Sue. Mary/Gary Sues are often the way they are because they are the author's avatar and/or favorite character in the story. Mara Jade would be another Mary Sue, clearly Zahns favorite, pet character. Corran ticks pretty much every box that fans have about who they'd want to be if they were in Star Wars (mostly because he is basically Han and Luke merged together). Great pilot, Powerful Jedi, has an R2 unit with personality, comes from a line of Jedi, is Correllian, is/can be a scoundrel, has an awesome love interest, knows and interacts with the characters from the movies (going so far as to explain the Dark Side to Luke.......).

There is nothing wrong with like a Gary/Mary Sue character if thats what you like.

 

Interesting read on the subject - http://bittersweetfountain.blogspot.ca/2013/07/corran-horn-rogue-9-jedi-and-mary-sue.html

 

I've never heard of the "Mary Sue" term until I came to these boards and I've learned to dislike it with a passion. A rather overused "argument".

 

Hey one of my best friends is named "Mary Sue"! You take that back!

 

what about Peggy Sue?

 

She got married.

 

Don't believe I said they have to be the main character. Wesley though is not a perfect character, lacks in several character traits, and if there is there for the audience not hte authory that isn't a Gary/Mary Sue.

If your'e talking about TNG as a story, and the character isn't around for even half the stories or any of the movies........He clearly isn't the one always solving the issue, saving the day, getting the girl etc....

I didn't say anything about being attractive, Wesley isn't/wasn't the romantic lead of the series. He never had a relationship that carry the show or was the center relationship. He wasn't the go to ladies man (that would be Riker). Getting a girl, or a couple doesn't = Gary Sue. Given how you talking about him, EVERY character on TNG was a Gary/Mary Sue.

Saving the world/galaxy doesn' t= Gary/Mary Sue. Fantasy and Sci-Fi stories often have that as an end goal. Thats a story element, not an aspect of a character.

 

It has been more than a decade since I've read the books but I got the impression that Wedge and Tycho were better pilots. Jace was a better pilot for the first several of the books.

Corran wasn't the best with the lightsaber in I, Jedi and had to come up with clever solutions to overcome superior opponents. Isn't this a mark of a well written chracter? Wouldn't a gary sue just be a better duelist from the start? Katarn before having any training could just out duel many experienced dark jedi. Corran had to go to the academy and train. Moreover he wasn't the most powerful character there either.

 

I thought it was Gary Stu? Not Sue?

 

lol... I put "marry" in the meme thingy. Oops.

 

No, Wedge MIGHT be a better pilot, but beyond that its Corran the whole way. By half way through the 1st book Corran has basically proved he is better then Jace.

Having to be cleaver doesn't = not a Gary Sue. If someone is so cleaver they can never loose thats a problem. The issue with Corran is he is great at everything he does with no flaws.

 

Like Force Jumping/Pushing/Pulling/Speed... oh, no wait a moment... he has none of those. He was also very hot headed early on and it got him in tons of trouble, it wasn't till post 'I, Jedi' that that trait started to phase out due to his Jedi training.

Corran has plently of weaknesses and messed up tons of times, the thing is he learns from all his mistakes. I'd call Corran one of the top ten pilots by NJO but early on (first 4 X-Wing books) barely top 50 and worked his way towards ton ten (most of the others where on his side due to the Empires attrition tatictis), though NJO on made it beyond made it clear the top two are Luke Skywalker followed by Jaina Solo and all others eat their fumes.

Corran Horn is a Mary Sue but he's one that works (mostly) and overall a great character. Yes, he had a special power that only a few had (Yoda, Vader, Luke, Jacen, etc...) but he had a weakness that almost no other force user had. Early on in his story he had the wishfulment angle of Sues but later has he grew wiser he lost that wishfulment story plotline but gained the wise master trope in its place looking at the new wishfulment Jedi in kinda a completeing the cycle moments (See his viewpoints on Kyp and Ganner). His silver saber was in the early EU days when everyone had one (example Mara getting the first purple saber and Kyle the first yellow saber etc...) and its two length mode he got just after Exar Kun got the first double bladed saber (but Corran's wasn't as useful). Yes his Sueisms wherent always perfectly countered out, but big attempts where made to... and I respect that about him. He's a character I feel LFL would be wise to consider adapting into more future stories.